Here is another thought experiment for fundamentalist Christians. However, first we need to get our definition straight. By "fundamentalist Christian", I mean people who people who firmly belief, as a matter of faith, the following five fundamentals:
1. The Inerrancy of the Scriptures
2. The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14)
3. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith (Hebrews 9)
4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28)
5. The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming).
The thought experiment is really quite simple: assume that a person is thoroughly familiar with the Bible and decides, either mistakenly through misinterpretation or as a result of being misled by an atheist, that they do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. Now, also assume that this person has led an ethically upstanding life (i.e. was kind, selfless and worked tirelessly to alleviate the suffering of others) both prior to becoming familiar with the Bible and after determining that its contents are unbelievable. In other words, to make this as simple as we can, this person has lived a saintly life but has decided to reject the Bible or any belief that Jesus was more than a well intentioned prophet. When this person dies, do they go to heaven or hell and why?
1. The Inerrancy of the Scriptures
2. The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14)
3. The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith (Hebrews 9)
4. The bodily resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28)
5. The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming).
The thought experiment is really quite simple: assume that a person is thoroughly familiar with the Bible and decides, either mistakenly through misinterpretation or as a result of being misled by an atheist, that they do not believe that the Bible is the word of God. Now, also assume that this person has led an ethically upstanding life (i.e. was kind, selfless and worked tirelessly to alleviate the suffering of others) both prior to becoming familiar with the Bible and after determining that its contents are unbelievable. In other words, to make this as simple as we can, this person has lived a saintly life but has decided to reject the Bible or any belief that Jesus was more than a well intentioned prophet. When this person dies, do they go to heaven or hell and why?
This is a response to this question placed on reddit.com by an apparent atheist:
ReplyDeleteHell. The fundamentalists have a very clear philosophy: believe in Jesus and be saved, otherwise you're going to hell. It doesn't matter how bad you are (a serial murderer who loves Jesus is saved) or how good you are (an atheist doctor who saves a thousand innocent children in the third world from malaria goes to hell). And in your thought experiment, this person read and understood the Bible, had the choice of accepting Jesus, and intentionally refused. Definite hell.
I prefer thought experiments involving people who grow up in cultures where they can't possibly know about Jesus, or children raised by wolves, or aborted fetuses. Since they never accepted Christ into their hearts--even though they never had a chance to--do they go to hell?
What I don't get is people who agree that it's the belief that matters, not their actions, and still can't understand why I don't even WANT to believe in their God.
ReplyDeleteI love this a response from reddit.com:
ReplyDeleteFrom the broad description given at atheistmissionary's page, I am a Fundamentalist.
(Note: It is a broad definition he gives. I don't call myself one because I am neither a Young Earth Creationist nor a Dispensationalist).
Evangelical or Fundamentalist Christians would first focus on the nature of the "good" hypothetical person being described. The question would be asked "Is it possible for such a person to exist?". They would answer this and say no - such a good person does not exist.
The reason is sin. Romans 3 makes it clear that no one is innocent; no one is guiltless; no one hasn't rejected God.
The hypothetical person, therefore, cannot exist in the realms of possibility for Fundamentalist Christians.
Here is another response from reddit (by the way, the passage he or she quotes is from Matthew 25):
ReplyDeleteThis isn't much of a thought experiment, since most Christians (especially fundamentalists) already have an answer for this question: a person goes to hell without Jesus.
However, if one were to reject the system of theology built up around the Bible and just take the words of Christ himself on the subject, you might reach a different conclusion. Jesus always said that it is good people that "inherit eternal life" and evil people and religious hypocrites who are sent away to hell.
Now, I know it's long, but if you could please read this passage and consider it (whether you are an atheist or a born-again Christian or anything in-between)
‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family,* you did it to me.” Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’
The standard Christian response to this passage is that people can only be counted among the sheep in the way that Jesus described if they are born again Christians! They would say that every person is sinful (and this is true), but Jesus also constantly spoke about how people will be judged and weighed based on their actions. I believe that it is completely possible for a person to be chosen by God to respond to the commands of Christ and live a life of love and service for "the least" (illustrated in the passage above) as a non-Christian. The person drawn to this life may not ever know or acknowledge the source of their life of love for others, but I believe that person will meet God on good terms.
2 Tessalonians 1:6-9
ReplyDeleteI am going to hell....
2 Thessalonians 1: 6-10:
ReplyDeleteGod is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
Brian, I'll see you in Hades and I will bring the cigars.
(I'm the guy who described himself as the broad Fundamentalist at Reddit).
ReplyDeleteObedience to God and obedience to the Gospel involve placing your faith in Christ and repenting (turning away) from your sins. The result of this changed heart is a life of good deeds.
Salvation isn't due to works, but works accompany those who are truly saved.
Ephesians 2.8-10 is important here:
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I realise that this could quite easily turn into bible quote bouncing, but the Bible is full of both the idea that God's people are chosen not according to their good deeds, but that good deeds accompany this membership. The Ten Commandments, for example, were given to a people already called God's people.
Conversely, there is no part of the Bible which contains mention of some "hidden" people of God. In OT times there was no "alternative" Israel and, post-Christ, there is no mention of those who are "saved" who are not part of the church.
I hope I'm being informative here. I don't hate atheists and I am personally offended by how some Christians treat atheists. I'm also reasonably leftist in my politics and am constantly warring with other Christians who somehow think that conservative politics is somehow biblical.
In short, don't somehow think I'm your standard evangelical Christian.
Thanks for your insight Salient.
ReplyDeleteI guess the point I am trying to make with this Thought Experiment is that my hypothetical person has no need to repent (because they have never done anything wrong nor will they in the future) and they have no desire to place their faith in Jesus (either because they have misinterpreted the Bible or have been deliberately led astray by an atheist). Why do they go to hell? I just don't get it.
Well, apart from the fact that "the Bible says they will", you probably need to understand the thinking that goes behind a lot of historical Christian thought.
ReplyDeleteThis is the idea of God being our creator and our King and ruler. We owe everything to God, he owes nothing to us. Therefore, to reject the true creator and King is a serious offense.
Historical Christianity pretty much affirms the idea of a single God ruling over all and who demands the servitude of those whom he has created.
Like a lot of the belief systems, Christianity has its own internal logic that fits once you view it from the inside. I'm not saying that it is completely consistent and logical at all levels though.
I get it: the Bible tells you so and, yes, the Biblical God sure does demand servitude. I just don't understand how he could demand servitude from: 1. those who have never heard of him; 2. those who have been misled; or 3. those who mistakenly "miss the boat". It doesn't make any sense at all and I remain perplexed at the unending demand for this bill of goods. It fuels my atheist mission.
ReplyDeleteunending demand for this bill of goods. I'm not sure what that means.
ReplyDeleteBill of Goods - communication (written or spoken) that persuades someone to accept something untrue or undesirable; "they tried to sell me a bill of goods about a secondhand car".
ReplyDeleteSimply put, I view fundamentalist Christianity (as defined in this post) as a bill of goods.
However, maybe I am being too hard on the fundamentalists. There are plenty of other irrational belief systems out there worthy of criticism. I am reminded of one of my favorite quotes:
"I think that intuitively we understand that beliefs are contagious. So if someone goes along with the herd and follows one of the major surrounding religions of their culture, this need not demonstrate much of a defect. But if someone gets taken in by a minority cult, there is less excuse. It might seem more or less wilful, or the result of an unfortunate stage of life at which they were especially at sea. Other things being equal,someone who believes that Jesus walked on water is not, in our culture, so many bricks short of a load as someone who believed that the Hale-Bopp comet was his vehicle to heaven. Holding the first belief is excusable, given that so many people have been repeating it to you since childhood, whereas you have to go out of your way to pick up the second. You have to acquiesce in your own deception, or want to be deluded. It is said that religions are just cults with armies, but they are also cults with a greater number of practitioners and louder voices, and those greater numbers exert more pressure on children and even adults to join in. So joining in is less of a measure of cognitive vice. Quite sensible people get taken in. But it remains true that we cannot both hold that they believe a lot of things that it is perfectly irrational to believe, and respect them on that account." Simon Blackburn.