Monday, March 30, 2009

What would have to happen to shatter your faith?


A shooter goes on a crazed rampage and kills 8 people in a Carthage, N.C. nursing home. One response: "It's a small community built on faith, and faith will get us through." see: http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/610310

This, of course, begs the question: what would have to happen to shatter your faith?

The answer, I am afraid, is that there is no act (natural or man-made) that would shake the faith of true religiots. In fact, if New York were vaporized tomorrow by a nuclear bomb, many them would rejoice and see this as a sign that the "end of times" is near. Scary.
Posted by The Atheist Missionary at 8:11 AM
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10 comments:

  1. The reaction of some to human calamity perplexes me less than what I call the "training ground" theory. I had a very good childhood friend who died of cancer. He was, by far and away, the most truly decent person in my circle (including me). Someone said to me after he died: "I guess God thought that he could do better things somewhere else". If so, then why prolong this training scenario? Let us separate the men from the boys right now; wipe out everyone who is not deserving; and let the rest of the fortunate get on with what matters?
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  2. Perhaps the person quoted in The Star should have said, "Well, we're just a sack of molecules anyway. What difference does it make?"

    If you want to "shatter my faith", just live consistently with your atheist worldview.
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  3. Tirian, I must tell you that I don't think that there is such thing as an "atheist worldview". We just reject a worldview that is based on ancient scripts that support the stoning of homosexuals (do you support that?), the stoning of adulterers (do you support that?), killing your child if God tells you to (do you support that and how do you tell if you're just not having a psychotic episode?), instructs women to subservience to men (do you support that?), condones slavery (do you support that) and prescribes death as the sentence for a whole host of offences, including cursing nother or father (do you support that?). I just don't see how the Bible provides a moral code for anyone other than a psychopath.
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  4. AM Said:

    "I must tell you that I don't think that there is such thing as an "atheist worldview"."

    You don't just reject other worldviews without having your own. The atheist worldview, like all worldviews, is a package deal. You have your own presuppositions and filter all evidence through those presuppositions. For example, you deny the existence of God. From that point, you interpret any supernatural truth claims. However, supernatural truth claims cannot be examined under a microscope or in a lab. Atheists not only deny the existence of God, they deny the existence of anything that is non-physical in nature, like the soul, love, morality. They try to explain these things in terms of naturalism, but they can't be explained that way. Atheists don't live according to their own beliefs--indeed they cannot live according to them.

    I've already addressed the OT civil laws you find repugnant in another comment thread, if you really want to pursue slavery (which the Bible doesn't condone, except in limited cases such as owing a debt you can't pay), male and female roles (Christianity liberated women from the gross mistreatment of paganism)etc. I will pick up the subjects, but the question is, do you support cursing mother and father? Do you support adultery? Do you support lying and stealing? Why not? Because it violates what you *think* and *feel*? That's no defense of morality.
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  5. To answer your question directly, I do not support cursing parents, adultery, lying or stealing. To be honest, I can't tell you why these things strike me as inherently wrong but it certainly isn't because the Bible tells me so. I suspect that evolutionary adaptation has alot to do with it. My point is simply that the Bible directs me to kill people for doing many of these things and directs me to kill homosexuals. Do you reject these Old Testament teachings and, if so, why?
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  6. AM, the Bible doesn't direct you or anyone else to kill people for doing these things. It directed the Old Testament theocracy to do so. That theocracy has been done away with...

    However, those things (adultery, etc.) strike you as inherently wrong because you have a conscience given to you by God so that you know right from wrong. Your conscience either commends or accuses you. I would recommend to you a careful reading of the book of Romans.
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  7. Tirian, I have wasted more time reading the Bible than I really care to admit. St. Paul was no lover of homosexuals: Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. So how can you believe in the Bible as the word of God without believing that homosexual conduct is worthy of execution? In my respectful opinion, you can't without being a hypocrite.
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  8. AM, it was a sin worthy of death under the Old Testament theocracy. However, it is now only worthy of the second death--eternal damnation, lest it be repented of. Christians are not commanded to execute anyone. I'm starting to notice I will be repeating myself a lot here.
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  9. Tirian, I would like to respond to your statements that an atheist is unable to understand your Christian worldview. I was born into a fundamentalist Christian family, and I was part of a church that attempted to follow the bible as closely as possible. I grew up believing that with all my heart. My faith was my strength; I depended on prayer and intimate knowledge of the bible. Yet even with this viewpoint I realized as I grew older that it was all a sham. I found that I could achieve the peace I had once felt through prayer simply by meditation rather than selfish supplications to an invisible magician. I have found greater inner quietness and spiritual equilibrium in following my own moral compass than I ever did when I was a zealous Christian. Don't accuse an atheist of being unable to understand your worldview on account of being blinded by their own opinions. You don't know their story.
    Also, you say that Atheists deny the existence of 'everything that is non-physical in nature'. This is not true. I very much believe in the inner soul that makes a person unique, and I most definitely believe in love, and in morality. However, as I stated earlier, you don't need to believe in a god to know peace or how to be a good person.
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  10. Eris,

    I didn't say an atheist cannot understand the Christian worldview. If an atheist actually cared to understand it he could.

    I am very sorry to hear about your apostasy. You are deluding yourself about inner peace. There is no inner peace, if that peace is not with God.

    I don't know how you came to the conclusion that Christianity was "all a sham", but if you want to assert you are an atheist and believe in the soul, how do you square that with your atheism (which denies the existence of non-physical entities)? How do you justify the existence of things which you cannot empirically observe? I guess you still live by faith?

    Please tell me how, as an atheist, you believe in the soul, love, morality? How can you explain the existence of abstract, invariant, universal entities like the laws of logic? Scientific induction? the uniformity of nature? Remember, we are all just sacks of molecules, matter in motion. It looks like you have a philosophical contradiction to contend with...
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