- Do Christian clergy and parishioners really believe all the crap they profess to believe?
Watts, an expert in the study of comparative religion, answered this question is the negative as follows:
"I return to the point that clergy and people of the church do not really believe at all in God in the old-fashioned sense of the word. If they did seriously believe the Christian religion in its orthodox form, they would be screaming in the street. But even the Jehovah's witnesses are more or less polite when they come and call at your house. If they really believed that you were going to hell, they would make a bigger fuss about you than if you had the bubonic plague. But nobody really takes Christianity that seriously anymore, because they do not believe in it. They know they ought to believe in it. In fact many sermons are exhortations to have more faith, which means that we all recognize that we do not really believe it, but we ought to. We feel very guilty about it, but we do not have the moral strength to believe in this. However, it is not only a matter of moral strength. It is a matter of being asked to believe in something that most people feel is nonsense, which is the world is run on the lines of a state. How can you be a citizen of the United States, having taken an oath that a republican form of government is the best form of government, and believe that the universe is a monarchy?"
"But nobody really takes Christianity that seriously anymore, because they do not believe in it. They know they ought to believe in it. In fact many sermons are exhortations to have more faith, which means that we all recognize that we do not really believe it, but we ought to"
ReplyDeleteThis is true. But, why is so difficult to recognize that what we believe is nonsense?
I have met christians that agree that the bible and relligions are BS but there must be a god. There must be something up there.
How do they close that bridge? How do they know that something up there is the judeo-christian god without anything to back it up?
I think part of it is just fear, fear to loose friends and social network. Fear of the "what if.."
To answer your question: Yes. I, for one, do actually believe the claims of Christianity, and I believe them to be objectively true about the real world. Not just some kind of pretend belief system that helps me through life and gives me meaning.
ReplyDeleteYes, I believe God exists. I believe Jesus actually physically rose from the dead. I believe we all have immaterial souls that survive physical death.
Brian asks, "But, why is so difficult to recognize that what we believe is nonsense?" Of course, we Christians often wonder the same thing about atheists: why are they so blind to obvious evidence that the world has design and meaning? Do they really actually believe that the universe came to exist from literally nothing? And that morality is completely subjective?
So... the general answer to the question of why people hold beliefs one way or the other is that it takes a lot to change a person's mind. People are committed to perpetuating the belief system they already have, it's in our nature to do so. (I recommend reading "Mistakes were Made," by Tavris and Aronson). It takes a lot for a conversion to take place - either way.
But to just assume that people with different beliefs must just be stupid or fooling themselves is to seriously misunderstand human psychology.
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete@Matthew
ReplyDeleteThere is no evidence of design in the Universe. Science can explain everything you see. There is no need for the super natural.
You believe the Universe came from nothing as well. To make matters worse, you believe some infinitely complex entity made this universe from nothing. An infinitely complex god existing forever makes less sense than a naturally occurring universe. And there are no pesky things like having to explain where God came from in the first place.
Atheists are still good people. They aren't lacking of any morals. Atheists are good, because it's the right thing to do. Why are you good? I hope it's more than to stay on God's good side. Do you think you would be a bad person without God there watching your every move? Seems to me that Atheists are more moral, because they are good even though they don't think anyone is watching.
..."we Christians often wonder the same thing about atheists: why are they so blind to obvious evidence that the world has design and meaning?"
ReplyDeleteThe world is beautiful and cruel at the same time, it is what it is. The world looks exactly as it was not designed by any supernatural being. What would be the meaning with the extinction of species in the past? What would be the meaning with diabates and cancer or swine flu?
We don't even need a god for moral standards. He is very louzy with morals anyways. We are better off as humanists.
http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2009/04/30/accommodationism-and-the-nature-of-our-world/
I don't think people holding beliefs are stupid. The beliefs might be stupid but not the people.
I have the best dad ever, he is the most honest, right and hard worker person in the world, he is very smart and no stupid, but he really believes deeply in the jehova's witness teachings. Eplain that?
I don't belive in god for there is no evodence whatsoever. But, I am open to anything to change my mind anytime. Am I bias? probably. But, I really tried hard to believe in god a few years ago, and I couldn't keep up with the nonsense.
Matthew: do you believe that it is the burden of yourself and other believers to prove the existence of God; or that it is up to the likes of the Atheist Missionary to disprove the existence of God; or neither?
ReplyDeletePlease advise.
This is my favorite line:
ReplyDelete"How can you be a citizen of the United States, having taken an oath that a republican form of government is the best form of government, and believe that the universe is a monarchy?"
Awesome! May the Proof be with us!
@unit of one
ReplyDeleteI disagree about evidence of design. And to clarify: I believe the Universe came from something, not nothing. I see God as outside of the Universe. He didn't have to "come from" anywhere.
And I agree that atheists can be moral people. I was just saying that morality without an external source is subjective (socially constructed, evolutionarily advantageous, or whatever you want to say) rather than objective. And it seems to me that there are objective moral truths in the world. And yes, the reason the be good is "because it's the right thing to do," as you said. However, it's unclear what you mean by "right." If you don't have an external, objective source, "right" ends up being just some nebulous, subjective thing.
CKDC: The burden of proof is on believers to prove the existence of God. Since God is not visible to the physical senses, we believers need to have good evidence if we hope to convince nonbelievers of God's existence.
ReplyDeleteMatthew, I understand your point about the Universe having to come from something rather than nothing. Where you lose me is why God gets the default. If I accept your master designer argument, you just delay the problem because the same argument that you apply to the naturalistic Universe must apply to your creator in a realm outside our Universe.
ReplyDeleteHave you read anything about string theory? An utterly fascinating subject which I must admit is largely beyond my comprehension. However, I am aware that physicists describe the math underlying string theory as beautiful and that it requires something like 26 dimensions to work out. It is difficult for a layman to conceive of anything beyond 4 dimensions (i.e. three for space and one for time). Recognizing all of this, why do you feel it is necessary to point to a supernatural trigger for the expansion from the singularity that almost all physicists now accept as the explanation for our currently expanding Universe?
As far as your comments about morality are concerned, what do you rely on to posit that "there are objective moral truths in the world"?.
The Atheist Missionary said, "why do you feel it is necessary to point to a supernatural trigger"
ReplyDeleteThe physical universe, including however many dimensions of space-time exist, is all part of nature. From what we know, every physical event has a cause (quantum causes included). So I think the beginning had a cause, too. But that first cause must have been outside of nature, since nature didn't exist yet. It was non-natural, i.e. super-natural.
You're right when you say this just pushes back the question. You said "you just delay the problem because the same argument that you apply to the naturalistic Universe must apply to your creator in a realm outside our Universe." However, the supernatural is the kind of thing that can be uncaused and always existing in a way that the natural cannot.
So, the answer to "what caused God?" is nothing - nothing had to. If something supernatural exists, it's reasonable to believe causes work differently there. In the natural realm the question "what caused a physical event?" always needs an answer.
Matthew, I tend to agree with your belief that something must have triggered the big bang but I disagree with the suggestion that every physical event must have a cause. We currently know far too little to make those kind of absolute statements and we have evidence to the contrary all around us.
ReplyDeleteI used to think along the lines of what you are suggesting. Then it began to dawn on me that there are plenty of examples in our own environment that do not have beginnings. Where is the beginning of a circle? In space there is no up or down, east or west, north or south. We know that time is relative which can get really freaky when you start thinking about it. Physicists now tell us that at the point of singularity there may not even be time as we know it. Will the universe continue to expand indefinitely or will it begin contracting at some point? There is much that we don't know. However, I remain perplexed as to why God is your default.
The universe is very complex and we still have lots of things to learn about it. If there was a cause and the cause was God and that God is the Judeo-Christian God, how come such a wonderful being dealt with our sins through sacrifice of male livestock? As stated in Leviticus.
ReplyDeleteI really don’t think both beings are the same, evidence and the bible show different supernatural beings.
I think AM and Brian really have the $64,000 question for Matthew. It's fine to engage in purely intellectual exercises about an all-powerful consciousness existing outside Existence, where by definition no instrument could reach it. But that's not what you're talking about.
ReplyDeleteYou're talking about whether that all-powerful consciousness, whose existence you have posited but not proven, is Yahweh, the Tetragrammaton, the God of the Israelites, the Father of Joshua Ben Joseph the Messiah, whose will is preserved in the canonical texts of the Christian Bible. Actually, if you want to get really technical, you're talking about whether that consciousness is Yahweh AND Joshua AND a third guy, all rolled into one but maintaining, somehow, distinct essences.
This is tantamount to my claiming that I don't know the Aristotelian First Cause, so it must - MUST - be my friend Bob. There's absolutely no gap in the scientific record, nor could there plausibly emerge one, which would make ANY personal deity, let alone one particular personal deity, the most likely solution. Absent any other evidence, why not Bob?
Free Radical, it can't be Bob. It must be the Holy Trinity ... because the Bible says its so.
ReplyDelete