Here is da's answer to his Sunday School question:
Sorry for the delay of my Sunday-School assignment. As a punishment I am willing to memorize some of Sam's "verses". Especially the ones where he quotes the Bible :)
Question: Are you willing to admit that there is a possibility that there is no God or life after death and that the miraculous events described in the Bible are myths? If you are willing to admit such a possibility, how would your life change if it were true?
I had to think for a while. The main reason I couldn't find a quick answer is that I do admit that there is no definitive proof of God nor life after death. On the other hand, I have experienced so many situations where the part of my being responsible for "spiritual matters" has demonstrated me the presence of God. I have seen so many lives changed by Jesus for the better, mine included, I have witnessed so many scientific unexplainable "wonders", logic tells me it is more probable the Gospel records are true than not, I have a communion with the Lord so deep, ect, ect. Although I agree it is not scientific, I, do have more than enough proof of the existence of God.
With the knowledge I have so far, at this present state, I cannot conceive there is a possibility for God not to exist nor that there is no life after death, nor no miraculous events.
Let´s see if Mr. Harris achieves to change something on this.
da, I anticipated your response. People who are deluded are usually unwilling to admit the possibility that they are wrong. It's kind of like asking a mental patient who believes that they are Napoleon to consider, just for the sake of argument, that they are not Napoleon. Please don't be offended at my analogy to a mental patient. In fairness, we began this exchange with my frank admission that I was convinced that you are deluded.
A skeptic like myself accepts that this is almost nothing (except perhaps René Descartes' Cogito ergo sum) that can be taken as being absolutely certain. For example, how can you be 100% certain that you are not dreaming right now? How can you be 100% certain that you are not a brain in a vat or living in a matrix? The simple answer is that you can't be 100% certain of anything. If you were not deluded, you and I would still likely disagree on the likelihood of your God existing. Remember, I (like Richard Dawkins) have never said that God does not exist - I just believe it to be very, very improbable. Your failure to admit the possibility that God does not exist simply proves to me that you are deluded.
I am starting to regret that I did not get you to read Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation or Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. Oh well, baby steps ...
Maybe you should stop this exercise now. We are obviously doing the devil's work in trying to sow seeds of doubt in your undoubting faith.
Sorry for the delay of my Sunday-School assignment. As a punishment I am willing to memorize some of Sam's "verses". Especially the ones where he quotes the Bible :)
Question: Are you willing to admit that there is a possibility that there is no God or life after death and that the miraculous events described in the Bible are myths? If you are willing to admit such a possibility, how would your life change if it were true?
I had to think for a while. The main reason I couldn't find a quick answer is that I do admit that there is no definitive proof of God nor life after death. On the other hand, I have experienced so many situations where the part of my being responsible for "spiritual matters" has demonstrated me the presence of God. I have seen so many lives changed by Jesus for the better, mine included, I have witnessed so many scientific unexplainable "wonders", logic tells me it is more probable the Gospel records are true than not, I have a communion with the Lord so deep, ect, ect. Although I agree it is not scientific, I, do have more than enough proof of the existence of God.
With the knowledge I have so far, at this present state, I cannot conceive there is a possibility for God not to exist nor that there is no life after death, nor no miraculous events.
Let´s see if Mr. Harris achieves to change something on this.
da, I anticipated your response. People who are deluded are usually unwilling to admit the possibility that they are wrong. It's kind of like asking a mental patient who believes that they are Napoleon to consider, just for the sake of argument, that they are not Napoleon. Please don't be offended at my analogy to a mental patient. In fairness, we began this exchange with my frank admission that I was convinced that you are deluded.
A skeptic like myself accepts that this is almost nothing (except perhaps René Descartes' Cogito ergo sum) that can be taken as being absolutely certain. For example, how can you be 100% certain that you are not dreaming right now? How can you be 100% certain that you are not a brain in a vat or living in a matrix? The simple answer is that you can't be 100% certain of anything. If you were not deluded, you and I would still likely disagree on the likelihood of your God existing. Remember, I (like Richard Dawkins) have never said that God does not exist - I just believe it to be very, very improbable. Your failure to admit the possibility that God does not exist simply proves to me that you are deluded.
I am starting to regret that I did not get you to read Sam Harris' Letter to a Christian Nation or Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. Oh well, baby steps ...
Maybe you should stop this exercise now. We are obviously doing the devil's work in trying to sow seeds of doubt in your undoubting faith.
P.S. By the way, I am Napoleon and nothing you say or do will shake me from my conviction in the truth of that fact.
Da: perhaps a more innocuous question. Which one of the following statements do you agree with more.
ReplyDelete1. I am certain that God exists.
2. Whether God exists or not, I choose to believe that God exists.
Cheers.
Hi Napoleon,
ReplyDeleteof course this wasn´t to be an easy task for none of us. Me reading Sam Harris, you reading Rick Warrens? Crazy.
I must admit, in the last week I have been thinking about very interesting questions that, believe me, no-one had ever asked me at church. This has been, at least for me, an enriching week. Once again, with your comment you make me think: the point of absolute relativity that you are proposing gives the sunday-school question you had asked another twist. As I told you in my answer it were certain facts and experiences that make me believe what I told you. But, on a more existential level: what, if Napoleon never existed? Can anybody claim to be Napoleon? What if parallel realities exist: can various people be Napoleon? Why not?
I tried to answer the question basing it on the premise that some pillars of what we think life is, exist. For example: what historians tell us actually happened at some time. We, as humans, were born and will die. We have spirituality in us and long for eternity. Now these are some premises I need for my statement. If they are invalidated, anything goes, so to say. But then, we would have to start discussing on what do we know reality is and what relativity is. I would like comments on this one. Do atheists believe in anything or is there absolutely nothing that is true? Am I really writing this? Are you really reading it?
Although Sam is not my friend so far, I enjoy reading him insofar as that he poses interesting questions (I was also thinking of replenishing my drinks-stock to be better prepared for future sessions, which I would also enjoy). Same with this blog. In my view it would be a pity to give up this excercise. But then, I am not the hoster, it is up to you TAM. My commitment is firm, if you like we can go on.
To CKDC: my answer is similar to what I am presenting here, given some very basic premises: yes, I am certain that God exists.
Answer 2 goes into the issue of absolute relativity. Anything goes, so somehow both answers are correct to me given different premises.
See, you probably wanted a clear answer: either 1 or 2. But given absolute relativity I must give you 1 and 2. Everything goes very crazy, guys. Is that how you think and live?
da, I must disagree. Deconstructing The Purpose Driven Life is one of the easiest tasks that I have ever embarked on. I am enjoying the exercise and I agree that we should continue.
ReplyDeleteAs a general statement, I can't disagree with you when you state: We, as humans, were born and will die. We have spirituality in us and long for eternity. Personally speaking, I think eternity (even with 72 virgins) would get tiring. In any event, I have often stated that religion is simply mankind's response to its fear of death or, if you like, longing for eternity.
Now I think this is where you and I depart - a longing for eternity no more makes it so than a longing to be Napoleon makes that so.
I like the question you posed about whether atheists believe in anything so much that I have decided to dedicate a separate post to my answer.