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- The Atheist Missionary
- I am a Canadian father, lawyer, columnist, skeptic and humanist interested in furthering a critical analysis of religious belief systems. The name "Atheist Missionary" is a sarcastic jab at religious fundamentalists. Atheists don't proselytize and are unified only by their freethinking nonbelief in the existence of a supernatural deity. In my preferred reality, philosophers would be treated like rock stars.
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I've been called brilliant before, not a lot, still, this is nothing new.
ReplyDeleteYou should watch a few more of my videos if you haven't already.
I'm perplexed as to understand the meaning of the video. I would be very careful with what it is asking. what if the answer was yes to just one of those questions. Is it then rational and acceptable to trust in a God?????
ReplyDeleteDavid, I'm assuming that my audience has at least limited intelligence and honesty.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it I can never get an answer to a question when commenting on blogs, just a response which does nothing to add logic or reason pertaining to the query????
ReplyDeleteI guess if someone sincerely thinks they would put kittens in microwaves if they all of a sudden became an atheist then that person needs to believe in God. But in reality that person has severe mental problems to be with, but that is another story.
ReplyDeleteAh now we are getting somewhere. See your sarcasm exposes you. You aimlessly asked the question in your brilliant video and now I will respond with rational, justified, provable data you can then try to cast it off as putting cats in microwaves. What if a person used a higher power, God, to aid them in curbing addictions. The success of AA and NA and all the like groups have are of the most successful treatment program ever to be introduced to persons with addictions. They have been far more succussful than any Psychiatric or psychological treatment(which prove to be totally unsuccessful).
ReplyDeleteI have seen literally hundreds of people change thier lives, and hundreds of thousands have stop abusing children and wives, destroying families, stealing, and commiting their lives to crime due to admitting they where powerless over a substance and asking for
God to restore them to sanity. See, If they trust in God then began to trust nothing but themselves or society to help them they will face certain peril. Your video asked the question, I have given you an answer. I can express with absolute certainty that if every one of them reverted back to the misconception that they are the ones in control, and themselves alone can conquer the afflictions that they face, we would see them all, and I state, all, relapse in a short period of time. Once that happens they are prevy to return to whence they came. I do not see the brilliance in the production. I see a problem in society today of people worshipping all sorts of idolotries, money, power, prestige, things of no real intrinsic value. I see people escaping life through drugs, filling voids in life with things that cannot serve any purpose but to create a need for more. See, I stated, with earnest sincerety, in my earlier response, to be careful what you are asking. I have answered your question and I must say with a resounding yes.
I know of hundreds of people if they stopped believing in a God that could truly help them and if they put emphasis on allowing themselves to be helped by God then and only then can they overcome the disease.
Please do not take my word for it. Look up AA, NA,SA,OA, the success rate is astounding compared to any other treatment. I thank you for asking the question, I'm sure this will go along way in assuring you that your production falls short of brilliance.
David
ReplyDeleteIf people begin to believe in god so much that they honestly think he is behind them, then that will motivate that person to do whatever they wish. Let's look at AA and ask ourselves is god really behind the attendance? Or is it simply a display of will power, driven by the thought that the almighty is helping them through it?
If you honestly think god is helping them, i.e. he is behind their cause, then you will have no problem in telling me why he also assists Al Qaeda and co. in dealing with their long list of problems.
Secondly, thats right, he'll help wife-beating alcoholics who turn to him, but as for three year olds dying of leukemia? - get out of here! Obviously the alcoholic is in a more serious state and deserves divine assistance in kicking the drink....
Baconeater said...
'David, I'm assuming that my audience has at least limited intelligence and honesty.'
I may not agree so much about his dig regarding your intellect, but with regards to honesty, in particular honesty of the intellectual variety - you are very dishonest, or very deluded. Perhaps both.
I suggest you read the answers here.
ReplyDeleteYou claim that AA is successful. It is estimated the success rate is around 5%.
The people who think they are being helped by God aren't being helped by God, because God most certainly does not exist. It is mind over matter though. Just like the confidence an atheist may have by wearing a lucky shirt during a sporting event.
I have a question for David. How come God won't heal amputees? How come there is no known case of a limb growing back on a human? You see, that would be something miraculously supernatural. And for some reason God doesn't perform such miracles.
ReplyDeleteI should have attached this comic with the last comment:)
ReplyDeleteSee, your video asked a question, I gave an an answer which I told you, "you must be careful to ask". Now that I have answered the question with proof and reason, you do not like the answer so you in turn try to discredit my answer. Thanks for the, Answer to my question link. funny it proves even further my statement. First I said it is by far the most successful treatment compared to an other. The first statement on the link just further drives home my point. "I will never succeed because I refuse to believe in a higher power". It mentions where i believe you received your information from, there is a 95% drop out rate. Now, "you" sent me this info on which to inquire. Using the info you sent me it shows why there is a 5% success rate, if 95% drop out refusing to believe in a higher power they do not succeed, the five percent that do, succeed. Did you read the info on which you sent or just try a quick out. Thank you for the further data in ahich to prove my point with logic and reason.
ReplyDeleteIn reference to why God does not heal Amputees, I am personally offended by such an inquiry. Is an amputee any less of a person than any other individual????? It is a silly question, I mean really, what is your worldview???
ReplyDeleteYou slam me with that question assuming that an amputee cannot live a fullfilling life. See you measure quality of life by different stanard than myself. I just spoke to an amputee today. Sincerely, I spoke to my wife about it when I got home. I asked him and this is amazing in itself. "How did you lose your arm". He said, "you know what, most people are very uncomfortable asking that question, I think that is a gratifying question that you recognize and ask it without fear. At age 21 I had a cancerous tumor and they had to amputate it".
I then said, "Is it a burden", and his response was verbatum, "We all have our crosses to bear, my is no worse than the next".
Let get off the notion one has to be perfect to serve a purpose?
Rabhimself
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect I was just answering the question posed in the video. I warned of asking a question that may nullify the message.
I believe I answered the question.
In reference to Al Qeada again you are meshing two arguments. I was merely responding with logic and reason to his question.
If you wish to debate different religous beliefs and why I believe Christianity is a verfiable, logically reasonable belief system I will do that. We must have commonality though. I ask you "what is your worldview".
Just because you say my belief is untrue, that concludes it is and I'm dishonest??? how is that rational, or logical.
I will be happy to debate the issues that confront the conflicting views. Take a look at my blog. Be warned, Ad hoc, dialetic, sophistry and the like will be quickly recognized and reduced to thier value.
I will not debate infinitum, mundane arguments without structure or focus using certain premesis.
Please all are welcome.
Well hold on David, you are skipping around some of baconeaters points and trying to make him and atheists in general seem rather crass. Firstly, no, the amputee (generally, i obviously don't know that all amputees are decent citizens) is no lesser a person than anyone else.
ReplyDeleteCan't you see this just invites further questioning? I believe alcoholism is regarded as sin. That is, they are doing something god disapproves of, so they must turn to him for forgiveness. If they do this, he will 'cure' them of their addiction?
So basically, someone messes up their life by drinking themselves stupid and god will help them provided they turn to him for support and seek forgiveness.
Yet a weekly church-goer with devout faith loses their leg in a car crash and god doesn't give it a second look. It doesn't matter how much they turn to him, how much they pray, how much they seek forgiveness for any sins they may have committed - the leg isn't coming back.
I ask YOU David, what kind of world view do you have?
I can tell you right now, that if i lost a leg, my life certainly wouldn't become pointless to live. I can tell you, however, that my quality of life in many aspects would be greatly diminished compared to what i had before. On the other side of the coin, it wouldn't increase the quality of life on the aspects unaffected. Basically, i'd rather have both my legs than just one. If you don't agree with that i think you are being a bit obtuse.
Also, if the AA success rate is around 5%, then that's pretty awful isn't it? 1 in 20 who attend AA will be 'cured' by or with the help of god. 1 in 20? David, it would not surprise me at all, that if we took the global figures for alcoholics kicking the habit, without the help of AA, it would probably be about 5%. Seems reasonable to me.
I'll reitrate a satirical point i made earlier - ' thats right, he'll help wife-beating alcoholics who turn to him, but as for three year olds dying of leukemia? - get out of here! Obviously the alcoholic is in a more serious state and deserves divine assistance in kicking the drink....'
If you can't see any structure behind that point, or think it is mundane then fair enough. I'll leave you be, but if there is a god, he's one twisted individual.
As for visiting your blog, thank you but it's not for me. I have no interest in sparking debates with devout religious people, nor am i curious to see what all the fuss is about. I'd much rather have my debates with those who are curious (not pointing any elbows :) ) and bizarrely come and argue with atheists on an atheist blog.
As for explaining why you believe in Christianity, don't bother mate. I could equally find a muslim who could give me the same argument for islam, a jew for judaism, a hindu for hinduism - the list is extremely long.
Funny thing is though, you will discredit their arguments (which they think are just as logical and rational as you think yours is) and write them off as having it all wrong. Indeed, they will do exactly the same to you and each other.
When you all realise why you all discard everyone elses god, or any other god ever to be known in the entire existence of the human race (there are thousands), then apply this same line of thinking to your own god, then you will understand what an atheist world view is.
You've no doubt seen the Stephen Roberts' quote many a time, but once again, just to freshen the memory -
“I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”
David, AA is nothing more than a Christian cult and it's claims of success are bogus. A person is just as likely to free themself from alcoholism by going cold turkey. See my post: http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/04/cult-of-alcoholics-anonymous.html
ReplyDeleteand the comment thread following the post.
rabhimself comments
ReplyDeleteWell hold on David, you are skipping around some of baconeaters points and trying to make him and atheists in general seem rather crass. Firstly, no, the amputee (generally, I obviously don't know that all amputees are decent citizens) is no lesser a person than anyone else.
What points, I was asked why God does not help amputees, period, he made one point,except in assuming that an amputee needs his limb back, no exceptions, therfore I answered his only point.
Also in reference to me trying to make him an Athiest, he did that himself with the creation of the video. I will ask again, did you see the video or are you now pulling for the baconeaters production. It asked a question I answered it period.
Again your throwing around presumtuous acusation for the baconeater now.
Why do you assume that because a person is missing a limb, he needs it to grow back. We all suffer from inperfections. If we all where absolutely perfect, no flaws, what need would we have to seek anything other than our own desires. We are created and there are inperfections due to the fall of man.
See we have so many different arguments going now how would it be possible to ever come to at least an areement to disagree.
Different religious beliefs, growing back limbs, A.A. is a cult from the aethiest missionary.
by the way, I discard no one elses God. You brought up the point of Al queda in your defense, You asked me, again I gave an answer. How can you ask me a question about a sect of culture that deals in the Muslim faith and not allow me to give an answer.
See, you ask, I answer, you ask, I answer, I ask, no answer, no logic, no reason.
I'm not being crass, really can we stay on point and not throw around aimless, pointless random, thoughts without any logic or reason.
David, i was referring to baconeaters points regarding your answer.
ReplyDeleteYou can sit there and accuse me of being devoid of logic or reason, but thats just nonsense.
You made a post directed at me and stated you would be happy to explain why christianity is the right religion, you aksed about world views, you offered for me to come on your blog and i addressed them.
I'm attempting to defend baconeater in his absence, but you have nothing to say about any of my points except that they are -
aimless
pointless
random
without logic
without reason
mundane
without structure
without logic using certain premises
without rationale
Instead of addressing what i bring up, you basically tiptoe around them, making it seem that im basically talking out of my rear, to sum it up.
E.g. You still avoid the same satirical passage of text i have presented twice.
'' ' thats right, he'll help wife-beating alcoholics who turn to him, but as for three year olds dying of leukemia? - get out of here! Obviously the alcoholic is in a more serious state and deserves divine assistance in kicking the drink....''
That buddy, is directly related to your claims that the success in AA is due to the backing of god.
Alot of my last post was discussing the success of AA, which was something to do wiht your initial answer. If you don't want to talk about it / can't, then please, just drop out rather than trying to make it appear that i'm speaking out of turn.
You ask if we can stay on point, well, if debating your answer isn't on point, and neither is addressing some things you said - what is?
All i see is evasive manoeuvers, David. There's nothing outrageous that i have said or tried to talk about that you couldn't possibly respond to.
P.S. yes, i watched the video, the point of it being you don't need god to have the moral character and ethics that you do. Also, i never said you were being crass, i said you were attempting to make atheists appear crass with their approach to the amputee question - which by the way, you barely addressed. No david, they might not NEED the limb to grow back, but it sure would be nice. I don't think you'd be so obtuse towards the matter if you lost a leg yourself.
Lets start from the beginning
ReplyDeleteThe video asked a question
What if you realized that there was no proof God exists?
What if you became an Aethiest?
then the questions would you, steal, lie, rape, crime, etc.
Would you be a different person????
I answered with the following
I would be very careful with what it is you're asking. What if the answer was yes to just one of those questions. Is it then rational and acceptable to trust in a God?????
Baconeater response was an insult to my intellegence and honesty
Then I asked
Why is it I can never get an answer to a question when commenting on blogs, just a response which does nothing to add logic or reason pertaining to the query????
Then I get another illogical response.
that was not the only criterium posed in the video.
Baconeater
I guess if someone sincerely thinks they would put kittens in microwaves if they all of a sudden became an atheist then that person needs to believe in God. But in reality that person has severe mental problems to be with, but that is another story.
I responded then with fact, reason and logic.
David
I can express with absolute certainty that if every one of them (A.A. and the like group members) reverted back to the misconception that they are the ones in control, and themselves alone can conquer the afflictions that they face, we would see them all, and I state, all, relapse in a short period of time. Once that happens they are prevy to return to whence they came.
I then received data on my facts provided by the baconeater that he perceived to supposedly destroyed my argument, but upon further inspection it verified my logic.
baconeater
I suggest you read the answers here.
You claim that AA is successful. It is estimated the success rate is around 5%.
Leaving me the website on which to verify his claims, yes it has a 5% success rate because 95% of them drop out early in treatment, partly due to the request of trusting in God.
O.K., I then argued if 95% drop out and 5% do not and trust in God to help them it is 100% successful, for those who trust in God. I reiterate this is the baconeaters info.
End of that discussion with baconeater.
I then get the amputee question as his defense which has nothing to do with the premise on which the original debate was based.
You then pose a logical question of great substance on which to reflect and build a premise on.
ReplyDeleterabhimself
If people begin to believe in god so much that they honestly think he is behind them, then that will motivate that person to do whatever they wish. Let's look at AA and ask ourselves is god really behind the attendance? Or is it simply a display of will power, driven by the thought that the almighty is helping them through it?
before I answer it you throw statements out without premis answering your own question based on no logic or reason.
rabhimself
If you honestly think god is helping them, i.e. he is behind their cause, then you will have no problem in telling me why he also assists Al Qaeda and co. in dealing with their long list of problems.
Way off subject, nothing to do with the question at hand.
What problems?????
Al qaeda???? muslim relion???
what cause do you speak of????????
then I get this
I may not agree so much about his dig regarding your intellect, but with regards to honesty, in particular honesty of the intellectual variety - you are very dishonest, or very deluded. Perhaps both.
O.K. where is your logic, my view differs from yours so here come the insults.
Now your losing me
Then question, upon question, never any focus.
How can I answer a question when my questions are answered with questions???
Then
Rabhimself
I'd much rather have my debates with those who are curious (not pointing any elbows :) and bizarrely come and argue with atheists on an atheist blog.
O.K. I am not trying to win an argument. I'm providing another point of view for those who are curious, that differs from yours and I'm the one pointing elbows?????
FYI the, Athiest Missionary who runs this blog is a member of my Blog.
Go back and read, I have made no attacks, I've only tried to answer the question, and have shown the lack of logic and reason, and again I think I have once again prevailed.
Unless you wish to further this argument staying on 1 point, 1 issue, and keep the attacks out of it so we can provide value to those who are curious.
No David, you are still evading things that have been brought up. My question to do with Al Qaeda is not way off subject. Al Qaeda believe a god is helping them commit their attrocities. I.e. he is behind them, just like you claim he is behind an alcoholic who turns to him. Why is that link so hard to establish? To claim you do not know what cause i am talking about with regards to Al Qaeda is just silly.
ReplyDeleteThe question regarding amuptees is also directly related to your claim that god helps alcoholics, if they seek him. Again, why can you not see the link? If he helps and cures alcoholics, why can't he heal amputees? It really is that simple.
EVERYTHING i have said is related to something either you have said or something baconeater said. EVERYTHING.
'Then question, upon question, never any focus.' - Excuse me? Like i said, everything i say is related to something you have said. In fact, its mostly related to the AA discussion.
If god helps sinning alcoholics, why won't he help amputees?
If god does indeed help alcoholics, why does he also apparently help Al Qaeda - because they claim he does? I use Al Qaeda as an example, but could've easily asked why he doesn't help cancer patients. Just something else that relates to divine intervention.
Other things i said were responses to invitations you made.
You've lost me, David. I'm reading what i have wrote and i can only conclude you just don't like the points/questions, hence you evade them, effectively claiming im off the rails, when really i'm not.
Once again, everything up there is related to something you have said, or baconeater has, and the majority is debating this idea you have forwarded (with focus being on AA in the following posts) that god helps people when they turn to him. Am i missing something? Is this not the issue? It all kicked off when you notioned that he helps people, and baconeater asked why not amputees then?
Also, i never said you were attacking, but i have to say i feel i am justified in expecting responses. It's rather irritating to constantly be called illogical etc.
I don't agree with your initial answer, David. I do not believe those 5% of people are succeeding because god is helping them. I also do not believe that those who independently try to kick their addiction cannot.
You obviously do think god is helping them, ultimately the question is if he really is, then why does he help them, and not others etc.
You have not answered the intial question at all because it is ambiguous. Sure, god might be helping them, but it is probably just a state of mind, believing that he is helping that is the root of success. I do not believe there is any divine intervention.
I'm sorry if you think eveyrthing i say is illogical and off-point. They really aren't though. It's all to do with god helping people, and the other things like i have mentioned previously were other esponss to things you said.
David, if you are saying 5% of people trying to cure an addiction is successful and proof of God helping, you would say the same thing if it was 1 in a billion that were cured. It is laughable.
ReplyDeleteLet me ask you a sincere question. Do you think God has helped you pass a test at school? Got you or a relative a job? Won a sport team a game? Cured someone from having arthritis?
Baconeater, I would go further and ask David this: Please give us one concrete example of divine intervention by God in the affairs of humanity in the last 1000 years. I pose the question in this way to avoid him relying on supposed miracles from Biblical times.
ReplyDeleteI guess you do not know how to have a contsructive debate or argument.
ReplyDeleteHow does Al Qeada have anything to do with rather you stop becoming a believer in God and become an Aethiest. See my response was to that video. I gave a response with fact, and data baconeater supplied. If you want to dispute the facts on the Aononymous groups and debate rather they really do it with Gods help that is the premise, Not amputees, insults and, al Queda, dying three year olds of lukemia. That has nothing to do with the original debate. See when you debate you need to argue the the conclusion of one subject then go to the next. I answered his question with a resounding yes. Does the answer I gave qualify or not?????????????????????????
I've tried to show you all the points are interlinked. I guess you are ignoring that everything i have said is related to something that has been said by someone. They can all quite clearly be related to one another.
ReplyDeleteBut hey, what do i know? I'm just an 'Aethiest' that doesn't know how to have a constructive debate.
I'm sick of this evasive nonsense that comes from religious advocates.
Peace out
I'll answer any question that all of you wish to propose, dealing with one and one issue at a time. I will not answer any other question until the debate in reference to the Video is concluded. Therefore I will answer Baconeaters question because it pertains to the original debate and question at hand.
ReplyDeleteBaconeater
David, if you are saying 5% of people trying to cure an addiction is successful and proof of God helping, you would say the same thing if it was 1 in a billion that were cured. It is laughable.
Again no logic, no reason, no abductive or deductive arguments.
Did you not read my response to the previous statements of the like. I answered it twice to current.
I will cut and paste the answers below from above to reiterate.
1st response
David stated
It mentions at the website you received your information from, there is a 95% drop out rate. Now, "you" sent me this info on which to inquire. Using the info you sent me it shows why there is a 5% success rate, if 95% drop out refusing to believe in a higher power they do not succeed, the five percent that do, succeed. Did you read the info on which you sent or just try a quick out. Thank you for the further data in which to prove my point with logic and reason.
2nd response
Baconeater provided me the website on which to verify his claims, yes it has a 5% success rate because 95% of them drop out early in treatment, partly due to the request of trusting in God.
O.K., I then argued if 95% drop out and 5% do not(drop out) and trust in God to help them, it is 100% successful, for those who trust in God. I reiterate this, it is the baconeaters info supplied as proof of his 5% argument.
Now do we wish to argue that point or have I logically shown that if indeed a person believing in God, then in turn reverts or regresses back to not believing in God and trusting only his own will or that of others, is it reasonably possible to say he can then relapse and go back to his life of drinking, drug use, crime, etc???????
That is what the video asked
David, a couple of things, one is that of the 5% who succeeded beating their habit, we don't know if it was the atmosphere of AA meetings, the desire of the person to get sober, or the person's reliance on God that helped him the most.
ReplyDeleteSecondly, at AA they want you to put your faith in a higher power, and as I saw in a Penn and Teller video, if one is an atheist, the higher power could be a tree or nature.
In other words, it is the person who pretends that he or she is accountable to a higher power that helps him through it...not the higher power.
And one more point. According to studies, 5% with alcohol addiction become alcohol free over time at AA, the same is true for alocoholics who don't attend AA. These people do it on their own or through a completely secular method.
So in conclusion, you are blowing smoke up your butt.
Now entertain me some more and answer these questions one at a time:
Do you think God helped anyone on this planet pass a test in school thanks to prayer? Do you think God got you or anyone of your relatives a job through prayer? Do you think any team won a sporting event thanks to prayer? Has God cured anyone of arthritis....
As for the person believing in God going to AA, there is no evidence that a person walks away from AA because they stopped believing in God. There is no evidence that AA members who believe decide they do not believe anymore, and that is what my video asks.
ReplyDeleteO.K. Last comment and then we will allow the reasoning of the curious readers of this blog determine rather I have shown proof that a theist (believer in a God or Diety) were to become an Athiest (non-believer in a God or Diety) could ever revert to becoming a person who would abuse drugs or alcohol, start committing crimes, stealing, etc. as a consequence of scraping thier belief system as a result of convincing them there is No God and a God does not exist and they should only rely on themselves or society to treat them.
ReplyDeleteIs it remotely possible they could become a different person?
This is the question posed in the video, period.
Here are the steps of the anonymous groups, you can replace alcohol with, sex, or,narcotics depending on the group in which they counsel.
Now read all the steps carefully and tell me with absolute honestly that you believe not one person has ever successfully changed thier lives due to the program.
1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
Now what if after a year of successful counsel due to the program and the belief system.
You convinced them thier belief was absolute silliness , and non-sense and there is no proof of God, no existence of a higher power, you can do this on your own and with societies help. Concepualize this and tell me ther is does not exist any possibility they would relapse?????????
If so I have debunked your video using yes, logic, reason, and rationality. Have I not??
Now entertain me some more and answer these questions one at a time:
ReplyDeleteDo you think God helped anyone on this planet pass a test in school thanks to prayer? Do you think God got you or anyone of your relatives a job through prayer? Do you think any team won a sporting event thanks to prayer? Has God cured anyone of arthritis....
In anything we do, we need faith. The same is true is that if we do not have faith in God, God cannot bless us.
We must be very careful here as we start to explore this query. There is no way we can argue this imperically. Just as I can show that a person had arthritis one day and was restored to normality the next does nothing to lead to a conclusion to my argument. As abundantly that I can provide you with what may be experiences that have been perceived by an individual to be supernatural you can contradict it with the opposing argument and state it as not, you would be as correct as I.
Even though this will serve little purpose I will give this response. In reference to passing a test, NO, God, I believe would not help anyone pass a test that was not astute and knowledgeable enough to pass the test. It would serve no purpose for God to reveal the answers to somebody who does not know them or are not prepared to answer the questions or problems presented on the test. Although I believe through prayer God can provide a calm and collectiveness that can assist a person to pass a test.
Do I belive God has ever helped myself or anyone get a Job through prayer. If the Job was one of which would serve a purpose to the individual, yes, just because we pray for God to provide us with a specific job we are seeking does not mean we will get the job. I have never prayed for a job because I trust that I will always be in the Job that is preparing me for Gods work.
Has God ever helped somebody's sport team win through prayer?
No, it serves no real purpose for a sports team to win or lose.
Has God ever cured anybody's arthiritis through prayer. Yes, but we must be careful, we all have our imperfections, due to fall of man. I believe miracles do happen, and unexplained supernatural revelations have happened, but they are not of the norm.
So the next question is the Amputee, let me be careful here. See, imperfection, pain, suffering is not caused by God. It is a direct result of our own nature. We do not need to be perfect humans to lead fullfilling lives. Do I think a person would be much better off with two legs or without arthiritis or lukemia for that matter, yes. I cannot say why God does not heal everybody, but it does nothing to negate the existence of God. If all where perfect what need would we ever have to seek anything other than our own self gratification.
I do not want to go into the fall of man because that is a books worth of theological exertation in itself.
We can never know what purpose our suffering serves. We must understand though God does not create the suffering. I believe he does provide solice from suffering if we truly trust him.
In addition if God miraculously grew back a limb of every amputee maybe we would no longer have faith,would we know God existed? This would in turn serve no purpose, if God gave us free will and then in contradiction made us believe in him through constant supernatural revelation. Would free will really exist?
I must reiterate these statements have done nothing to verify or negate Theism
As for the twelve step program, you have not provided any evidence that the person who drinks again did so because they stopped believing, only that if they stopped believing you think that they would start drinking again....meanwhile, atheists and believers alike stop drinking at the same rate without the program.
ReplyDeleteDavid, the fact is that prisons are full of believers. Atheists make up around .5% of the prison population. This shows me that non believers have less problems adjusting to a Godless universe than believers, who commit crimes while still believing in God, Jesus, Allah, etc.
You haven't proven that anyone would be a different person without God though. In your example you are assuming it. No evidence. And atheists too have taken the 12 step program successfully.
As for you allowing the possibility that God cures arthritis but doesn't cure amputees. I think you need to think about that some more.
I didn't say all amputees by the way, just one or two would be enough to show me that miracles can happen. The fact this hasn't happened in recorded history, shows me that you are blowing smoke about God curing anyone.
Thank you for the debate, your points are taken
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