Hitchens has the presence of an Anglican clergyman. Perhaps not surprising in light of the fact that he was raised in the Anglican tradition.
Key point of the night: an ethical life can be lived without reference to the supernatural.
Two great questions that divide theology from philosophy.
1. Is it true that one god created man or that many men created gods? Answer - the latter.
2. Is our sense of right and wrong innate or derived from God through revelation? Answer - the former.
Commandments appear three times in the Old Testament.
The first appears in Exodus 20. Moses smashes the tables. Reprise in Exodus 34. Restated in Deuteronomy 5. Considerable differences in the three versions.
Let's look at original version: First injunction - no worship of graven images. Punish the third and fouth generation of those who break this commandment. You're ok if your great-grandfather minded his Ps and Qs but screwed if your grandfather broke the rules. Jealous, insecure God. Yahweh must know that there are other gods.
Don't take Lord's name in vain. This has nothing to do with ethics or morality.
Observe the Sabbath. Again, nothing to do with ethics or morality. Only fear of the Lord. Also applies to cattle - good suggestion that commandments are man-made. Why not just say that workers get one day off a week?
Honour thy parents. Inducement not punishment. Parents not told to be good to their children.
Prohibitions against murder, adultery, theft and perjury. These prohibitions existed in Hammurabi's Code over 1000 years before the Book of Exodus was written. Nothing new here. However, no prohibitions in the 10 commandments against rape, enslavement, genocide or child abuse.
Don't covet thy neighbour's wife or livestock. First recorded instance of a thought crime. Appears to forbid the poor from coveting the rich.
Book of Numbers - Moses ordered that all women and male children should be massacred except virgins.
Did God make man or vice versa? A study of the Ten Commandments confidently suggests the latter.
The Bible's idea of mandatory love is sickening. A form of sadomasochism.
Prohibitions against genocide, murder, rape and child abuse should be self-evident
Prohibition of making idols - great idea - don't worship any Gods
Religion gets its morality from us - not the other way around. [Applause]
Can you think of any good deed that a person would do only in the name of God? [Of course not].
Can you think of an evil deed that a person might do in the name of God? [Countless examples]
Question - questionner angry at Hitchens' presentation. "You don't consider the time when the Bible was written. Most people don't take fundamental literal view of the Bible." Hitchens' response: if you admit Bible is metaphoric only, you are admitting most of what I seek to present. There are many evil things recommended by this text to which we should close our ears. Even if metaphoric only, the Bible not a good source to use as a base.
Question: What benefit does believing in God give to mankind? Hitchens: recommends a reading of Dennett's Breaking the Spell. The emancipation of the mind requires that we leave these concepts behind.
Good story by Hitchens: polytheism moving towards monotheism. Moving towards the true number all the time.
Question: Was George W. Bush's religiosity a one-off? Hitchens: Bush was like Tony Blair who was like Clinton - they all joined their wive's churches. Within the U.S. Defence Department, there are a group of proseletyzing militarists that are very dangerous. The fight against this element is happening right now and is one we can't afford to lose.
There should not be chaplains in the military to begin with.
Hitchens: I am not a fundamentalist. My positions are based on doubt. If it could be proved to me that Jesus did not exist, my life wouldn't change a bit. Believers, on the other hand, would be shattered by this news.
Question of violence in the abortion debate. Hitchens: nothing in Ten Commandments about abortion. Hitchens asks what our reaction would be if we saw someone kick a pregnant woman in the stomach.
Question: should we defend freedom of religion? Hitchens: governments should not subsidize churches by exempting them from taxation. You shouldn't have religious rights to mutilate genitals. Every faith based school that accepts public funding should be forced to teach the Origin of the Species.
Hitchens does not respect people of faith.
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
I was there as well. What an entertaining evening! I was hoping you'd be there as well but I have no idea who you are beyond this blog which is anonymous afaik.
ReplyDeleteDid you see the guy get up and leave when Hitchens said he had no respect for adults who lie to children as a profession? He went on to say that they frighten and fuck them as well. The man stood up, shook his head and gave Hitchens the thumbs down. Weird moment to take a stand!
I find it interesting that most of the questions tend to come from the theists at these lectures.
Jordan, Hitchens is one of those people who walks into a room, assumes that he is the smartest person in attendance and is usually correct. He is an absolutely vicious debater and the best part of tonight was at the end when he started to rant a bit. If you haven't seen his debates with Dinesh D'Souza (which can be found on youtube), check them out. Intellectual sh*t kickings. In any event, Hitchens is currently at the top of his game. Kind of like being able to see Wayne Gretzky play in the early 1980s. I'm glad you could make it out. Best regards, TAM
ReplyDeleteSo close to home and I missed him. I hope this gets on youtube.
ReplyDelete"Religion gets its morality from us - not the other way around". That is so basic but such a great remark. That is the problem with some Bibleists who seem to believe that somehow we get our moral values and ethical teachings from the Bible. Does that not beg the question as to who wrote the Bible? Humans, I take it. Sounds like a good evening.
ReplyDeleteI wonder if Tirian was there. I have not seen any postings from T in a while.
Thank goodness you changed the photo that you picked for Hitchens. The last one you put up might as well have had horns sticking out of his head.
I video taped it from the front row and am publishing it to You Tube as we speak. WIll advise.
ReplyDeleteHurray for Warren!
ReplyDeleteWhat´s the fuss about "Religion get´s its morality from us-not the other way round."?? Of course it does. Imagine or not: the Bible tells so, read Romans 2:14-15.
ReplyDeleteIt´s good to know the basics of your enemy.
Abortion, by the way, is considered murder, so it´s included. Slavery is not, as in ancient times it was considered a job...maybe not a nice one, but still. Rape is considered adultery/fornication, also a recorded as sin. Child abuse goes into the same catergory. Genocide is obviously murder as well...those are hardly convincing arguments!
fam.borer, there are multiple examples in the Old Testament of God directing, supporting and carrying out genocide. Hell, if you looked at Him sideays, he would smite you and your firstborn.
ReplyDeleteTrue, but the issue is not whether God has moral standards or whether he follows the moral standards he supposedly gave men but about the morality of men. If your point is to proove that God is inconsistent, theists will simply tell you: its God, he does whatever pleases him. If you tell a biblical theist genocides are allowed to men according to moral precepts he/she will not accept it (Don´t kill, love your neighbor). Now, a muslim will agree with you, as muslims are allowed to kill any non-muslim who doesn´t want to convert(Qur´an 2:193).
ReplyDeleteWhat I mean is that I don´t see this argument as helpful.
If you start discussing the morality of God you are conceiving that he exists. Its like discussing whether unicorns have green or red tails. :)
When I don't have this tab highlighted, the header reads "The Atheist Missionary: Live with Christ..."
ReplyDeleteJacob, sounds like an interesting hack job but I can't see it. Please elaborate.
ReplyDeleteOy vey....come to an Atheist site looking for intelligent discourse....and find the same bigoted ignorance as one finds in religion.
ReplyDeleteNo, Muslims don't have the right to kill whoever won't convert. See Surah 2 verse 222, "There shall be no compulsion in the Deen (way of life/religion). Or how about, "Permission to fight is granted only to those who are oppressed and driven from their homes for saying "God is our Lord" The fact that sick people can twist a religion or idealogy is about sick people. The original writings of Socialism didn't say anything about Secret Police or dragging people from their homes at 3am for "questioning" and sending them to Siberia yet look how far that got twisted without any gods involved. I applaud the questioning of religious doctrines, I don't applaud ignorance and beaking off about things you know nothing about.
Atheism (with a capital A)is just one more religion with it's own fundamentalists, fanatics and zealots wrapped up in their own ignorance and self-righteous superiority. It wants to spread, make converts, and make war upon and eventually oppress, subjugate and destroy all competitors JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER RELIGION BEFORE IT. It will be no more tolerant of doubt and dissention than any of it's predecessors. If it had the power, it would make agnosticism a heresy. Since I want nothing to do with religion, I find, increasingly I want nothing to do with Atheism either.
The only atheist (note the small a) worth listening to on the subject of religion is Karen Armstrong, and last I heard she WAS still an atheist. Now there is somone who does her homework and doesn't just rant about things she's willfully ignorant of. Of course, her interest in and respect for religion probably mark her as "an enemy of Atheism" and a heretic to those who idolize Hitchens and Dawkins.
Oh, and to the author of the site, "devoted to the peaceful eradication of all religion" is an oxymoron. Anyone devoted to the destruction of the belief systems of others is, by definition, not peaceful....the claim to non-violence notwithstanding. A good exposure to history will show that all groups devoted to the destruction of another idealogy begin by claiming their "peacefulness" and desire to convince others through reason. One they gain enough momentum and members, they inevitable turn violent. Any idealogy based on destruction will turn violent as soon as it's able to.
In case any of you would like to see Hitchens again, TVO's BIG IDEAS will be airing his ROM talk this Saturday and Sunday (October 3rd and 4rth) at 5:00pm. It will also be available as a video and podcast from www.tvo.org/bigideas and via iTunes
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