

Here´s the deal: I am a convinced theist (new-born christian) and also a missionary. You propose a book I will read, I propose a book you will read. Each week we read some 20 pages or so and send an email to each other of what we´ve read (to ensure everybody does the homework). Get the most compelling book you know of. If your book is convincing you might convert a theist into an atheist and get rid of one of their missionaries. This blog is about convert, isn´t it? So what about cutting the chitchat and getting serious. Who dares?
Recognizing that this kind of challenge was right up my alley, I responded as follows:
da, your reading assignment is Sam Harris' The End of Faith. I await my reading assignment and I will begin a post to record the respective chapter-by-chapter critiques.
I would like to make it clear at the outset that:
1. I like your style.
2. From what little I already know if you, I am convinced that you are deluded.
3. I embark on this exercise with an open mind and I hope you will be willing to do the same.
da answered the bell:
Hi fellow missionary (although of the other side), this sounds good to me. My book was also a New York Times bestseller, also around the 350 pages, so it seems also a fair challenge among these two books. It´s called The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. I will have to get your book in spanish as I live in Peru, although I´m Swiss (told you, classic christian missionary, traveling from one country to another). But I should have no problem getting hold of the book. Let´s say we get our books by next wednesday or so?
Now my terms:
1. I enjoy your blog
2. I think this will be fun and enriching
3. I open up my mind to the possibility you and the author could be telling the truth
4. Best if we avoid unconstructive argument-bombing at the other, like "You don´t know what was before the big bang" or "The earth could impossibly have been created in seven days". I think you and me are beyond these silly arguments, thinking on a more essential, philosophical and higher level than that.
5. Let us leave the main talking to the books.
6. Discussion should be on peacefull exchange of opinions and for comprehensive issues (if I don´t understand what the heck your pal is talking about)
7. At a given day each week a comprehensive question of the other must be answered (could be "give a short summary" or some more deep thought question about the content, that´s up to each one (to ensure homeworks are done).
8. In your terms: I´m 150% deluded. Hope that motivates you
9. I think you try to convince others to convince yourself
10. This is just a filler ´cause I wanted my points to be 10 like the commandements (proves how deluded I am).
The post sounds good to me, we could have like a public philosophic discussion. So everybody can watch us as if we were in an arena. The entire challenge should take some two months or so. I´m fully committed to it!
So this post will be continually updated until the challenge is complete. My section will begin under the heading "Deconstructing The Purpose Driven Life" while da's comments will be posted under the heading "[to be named by da]". On Sunday of each week during the Missionary Challenge, we will each pose a question to the other about the portion of the book they have read up to that point in time.
Deconstructing The Purpose Driven Life
Rick, I wish I had a video to post on youtube of me buying your book. I would have been less embarassed to buy a how-to manual on masturbation. In any event, I plucked down my $15.99 Cdn. and have cracked open a tall can of Pilsner Urquell to help me through your introduction. You say that you are going to take me through a 40 day spiritual journey that is going to enable me to answer what you tell me is life's most important question: What on earth am I here for? You also tell me that the next 40 days will transform my life and that you have been praying for me.
Rick, I declined to sign your covenant which indicated that I would commit the next 40 days of my life to discovering God's purpose for my life for several reasons:
- I don't need to sign anything to assure you that I will read your book (yes .... one chapter a day ... for 40 days) - my word is my bond;
- I have plenty of other things to do in the next 40 days besides discovering your God's purpose for my life; and
- I find the suggestion of looking for your God's purpose in my life (at least at this early stage) to be about as meaningless as me asking you to look for the Tooth Fairy's purpose in your life.
Finally, before I begin, Rick please do not be mislead by my title. I embark on this exercise with an open mind. I freely admit that I do not believe in a supernatural creator and I certainly do not believe in the literal truth of the Bible. I find it absurd that a significant percentage of North Americans find your reasoning more persuasive than mine. The point of this exercise is to allow me to try to follow your reasoning and, if you can convince me, all the better. I am not blinded by what some call faith in atheism even though I am The Atheist Missionary.
Chapter 1 - It All Starts With God
Rick, you say that focusing on ourseleves will never reveal our life's purpose. However, you are starting with the assumption that human life has a purpose. In your first chapter you use the word "purpose" 30 times without ever bothering to define the term. Of course, "purpose" can be simply defined as: the reason for which something exists or is done, made or used. Rick, are you saying that a maggot has a purpose beyond its bioligical urge to propagate its genes? I presume not. Are you suggesting that apes have a purpose beyond their biological urge to propagate their genes? If not, why would humans be any different than our closest evolutionary cousins? Maybe your book will tell me if your brand of delusion religion doubts the fact of evolution.
In any event, if I accept your assumption that my life (and the life of all my other human brethren) has a raison d'etre, you tell me right off the bat that I can discover my identity and purpose through a relationship with Jesus Christ. Hold on a minute. Jesus Christ (if he even existed) was supposedly born around 4 B.C. By my calculations, humanity as we know it was around for approximately 100,000 years before the birth of Christ. Did the millions of souls who lived and died prior to 30 B.C. (the year of the supposed crucifixion of Christ) simply get the shaft?
Rick, I've gotta tell ya - I didn't get much out of your first chapter. You start with Bertrand Russell's perceptive quote "Unless you assume a God, the question of life's purpose is meaningless" and then go on to tell me that the search for the purpose of life has puzzled people for thousands of years. You also tell me that brilliant philosophers has struggled with this issue and that they are "just guessing". However, for reasons which I presume will become apparent as I keep reading your book, you do not feel that you are guessing when you posit that: 1. human life has a purpose; 2. our purpose is to become what God created us to be (whatever that means); 3, God exists; and 4. the Bible is God speaking to us. Rick that is an awful lot to swallow in your first 5 pages. Have you ever tried to sell encyclopedias or vacuums?
The majority have spoken and each new chapter will receive a separate post.



17 comments:
Hey, this is great so far. I like your approach. Especially the Pilsener Urquell sounds a good idea. I might copy that one. I like how you reason point by point. I must admit, in my circles people are quick in accepting statements. This is an advantage in some moments but hey...God gave us our grey brain cells for something, didn't He? Some healthy opposition is very refreshing. Just a note on purpose. Purpose can well be defined as reason for which something exists. Cockroaches for example exist in order to decrease our life-enjoyment. Humans are way different than any animal species (show me a fish constructing a skyscraper, or a monkey programming MS Vista...ups, the last one might have already happened) and exist to get the chance to reconcile themselves with their creator, God. Animals are happy if they have food and sex. Of course some will say that's good enough for them. But Maslow is right by pointing out through his pyramid that we need some more things than that. We care about education, spirituality, morality and the topic of this blog is actually a proof that we, as humans, are not animals. What monkey would ever care about whether another monkey believes if there is a monkey god?
But now to my quest. Unfortunately it's not as easy for me to get Sam's bookd. I checked three bookstores yesterday with no luck. I will check four more tomorrow. This reminds me: dind't the big Mormon guy receive his book straight from heaven? That would come quite handy for me right now. What a pity God probably won't send atheist books from the sky ;) So, my quest for Sam's book continues...
If you are willing to read the book in English, just send me your address and telephone number (via email) and I will be happy to send you out my copy by courier. You can keep it because I have been meaning to pick up a hardcover copy.
One of my greatest criticisms of Christianity (and religions in general) is that they view skepticism as something to be avoided and blind faith as a virtue. If you have time, please check out my post Is Blind Faith Immoral?: http://www.atheistmissionary.com/2009/05/is-blind-faith-immoral.html
You also present a specieist attitude that is also prevalent in most religious traditions. Why do you assume that animals are incapable of morality? The University of Chicago Press has just published a book by Marc Bekoff and Jessica Pierce entitled Wild Justice: The Moral Lives of Animals which challenges that assertion. I have it hear in my extensive "waiting to read" library but some nut asked me to read The Purpose Driven Life!
On the topic of differentiating animals from humans, I would like to add two points:
1. I trust you agree that animals are certainly capable of altruistic behavior; abd
2. I concede that animals appear largely incapable of formulating beliefs (i.e. attributing a causal explanation). This is why animals don't build skyscrapers or atomic bombs. It is also why animals don't create religions.
I'll be keeping an eye on this - although is this guy serious? I am detecting an element of satire in his writing. Particularly with the ten points for ten commandments and further more with his dig at mormonism with regards to the book being delivered from the sky - if he's as clever as he maks out he'd realise the extreme irony of poking fun at a story like that, yet believeing fully in his bible.
Careful AM, i just don't want you to have to read that for nothing! Some people have strange senses of humour.
'I would have been less embarassed to buy a how-to manual on masturbation.'
That my friend is just classic, but i'd feel the same. Hope this goes well!
Typical of AM to suggest a book that the poor adversary can't find in a decent bookstore. I think da sounds committed to this exercise - go to it folks. We will be at the ringside ready to throw the white towel when the moment is right. Cheers (not you, AM, too many Pilsner will drown your intellect - stick with koolaid).
What a great blog entry! I'm excited to see how this develops! If I could chime in:
"4. Best if we avoid unconstructive argument-bombing at the other, like "You don´t know what was before the big bang" or "The earth could impossibly have been created in seven days". I think you and me are beyond these silly arguments, thinking on a more essential, philosophical and higher level than that."
I like this as a requirement for this contest. It is pretty difficult to defend (or in my case to even entertain) a literal interpretation of any sacred text. If you don't support what the Bible says or just pick out the 'good bits' that suit your moderate tastes, why bother with it at all? Definitely 'silly'.
"9. I think you try to convince others to convince yourself"
Projecting!
"10. This is just a filler ´cause I wanted my points to be 10 like the commandements (proves how deluded I am)."
I think this is quite illuminating as is Rick Warren's apparent desire for readers to devote 40 days. It sets the tone and it's just so biblical! Who WOULDN'T want to be part of something miraculous that takes 40 days?!
"Cockroaches for example exist in order to decrease our life-enjoyment."
I see what Rabhimself is getting at when he cautions you against leg-pulling because this had to be said in jest.
This is fantastic! I like da already. He may be deluded, but his attitude is fun.
I will say this da- animals are capable of more than most people think. Otters, crows, egyptian woodpeckers, chimps, and green herons, just to name a few, all use tools. Dogs and monkeys have an inherent sense of fair, just like humans.
I find it very odd to measure the value of a living thing on whether or not it builds skyscrapers or foists defective operating systems on the world. By that logic, humans with severe learning disabilities or mental illnesses aren't worthy.
(I do not think da meant to say anything like that. He undoubtedly never considered the end result of his logic.)
It doesn't matter to me whether da is the real deal Chirstian missionary or some pimple faced teenager from Van Nuys. Either way, I am going to have fun deconstructing The Purpose Driven Life. Rick Warren may be many things but he is not an intellectual heavyweight. To be frank, I fully expect this exercise to be like shooting fish in a barrel .... but I need to remember to keep an open mind. My spiritual journey is just beginning.
Da, look in a bookstore (librería) called Crisol in Lima, Perú
The spanish name is: EL FIN DE LA FE: LA RELIGIÓN, EL TERROR Y EL FUTURO DE LA RAZÓN
this is great!
okay the posty thing is working again... praise jesus this has given meaning to my purposeless life...and AM this presents an opportunity for you to be "nice", firm but "nice" you know something that is foreign in your workaday world...interestingly I found out about this on a friends blog I was reading...AM you are getting to be right some famous...
tommyboy, if you could buy me for what I'm worth and sell me for what I think I'm worth, you would have a million dollar profit.
da, are you out there? I am leaving you behind.
Ok, this has been one frustrating afternoon. After checking the five largest bookstores of town I come up with nothing. None had any title of Sam Harris, only one seemed to have heard of him. Crisol, by the way, was the lady that send me to look for the book in a catholic bookstore. Harris would be delighted by that one. I draw one conclusion out of this fact: if Harris is indeed a genious, he is quite bad in communicating his genious thoughts to a broad public. Maybe he should ask Bill Gates for marketing ideas...
I´ll try to get an e-book or some pdf if it exists. Thank you for your generous offer, ATM, I hope I can get it by other means. Brian, if you happen to be in Lima and have it...maybe you could lend it to me? Language doesn´t matter.
Still, I had the chance to "wikipedia" Harris. He´s some interesting character. I like him, his clear cut thoughts. I actually agree with not few of his statements. Although, in some crucial points, obviously we are galaxies apart.
One thing I realised on how some atheists try to argue is "logic-obsession". Don´t get me wrong, logic puzzles are among my favorites. But reality is, that mankind is pretty irrational. Find a personal test by googling "independent predictably irrational" and check how (ir-)rational you are. Anyone in love has done some irrational things sometime. Adding to the individuals irrationality, there is also a possibility for collective irrationality when everyone acts rational individually. Check the Tragedy of the Commons puzzle as an example.
I think the quest is not for "who is the most rational" but to compare phylosophical answers to some of mankinds most important questions. I think Harris could agree with me on this. Still, for my taste, arguments need to be reasoned as much as possible. But, as we are not discussing first grade physics, there are limits on how well some things can be logically explained.
Just another brief point. Although I would love to comment on many of the points brought up by the interested public, I will focus on the discussion with ATM and the challenge of the two books.
By the way, guys. Although I know most don´t agree with me thanks for taking part of this challenge. We can just profit from your comments. As the Bible puts it: "Many advisers make victory sure." Pr. 11:14
da, I just emailed you the PDF. Sam Harris can send me a bill.
BTW, I couldn't agree more with your comment about mankind being irrational. Religion is my exhibit #1 in that case.
TAM, in an act of unselfish benevolence, has send me Sams book on pdf. This demonstrates that: a) good resides in us even without conciousness of a superiour god, or b) he just wanted this *** thing started. You can judge which one it is :)
Any of the two, I´m glad to finally start reading.
PD for the hyper-moral atheists (???): I have already bought and ordered the book, so don´t worry about Harris getting his share, too.
TAM: I didn't know you posted about Chapter 2! Instead of updating this post could you create new posts for updates, maybe referring to "Part 1", "Part 2", etc so people can follow the series?
Great discussions. I love this stuff.
jody
http://steelwhitetable.org
AM, keeping an open mind will be difficult for both of you, good luck!
Evolution is seen by scientists to be pretty bunk. Adaptation, maybe. Even Darwin said if cells can be broken down even farther then hs theories go out the window... and it has already been discovered that they can be. In reality, an Intelligent Designer could have invented/allowed evolution and other scientific principles as a way of amazement or beauty for our enjoyment, but was perverted over a time. Just a thought.
Sorry da chose Rick Warren's book, not a heavyweight for sure...
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