For those who are getting tired of my "vegan kick", I apologize. However, with the Christmas season close at hand, there is no time like the present to try changing your diet and lifestyle to eliminate the consumption of animal products.
Please consider going vegan. It’s incredibly easy to do. It is the best thing for you and for the planet. And, most importantly, it is the morally right thing to do. We cannot justify killing nonhumans for our trivial purposes, no matter how “humane” our acts of injustice are. [I copied this last paragraph from Professor Gary Francione's Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach website]
14 comments:
Vegan? What's wrong with dairy products and eggs? Yes, it is "morally right" not to kill living things in order to eat, but I cannot see myself going anywhere farther than lacto-ovo vegetarianism.
what's wrong with dairy products??
here's a few items: http://www.notmilk.com/
The remark you borrowed from Mr. Francione is, really, indisputable. I agree with it.
The controversial part is the meaning of "trivial purposes".
I will help pay for a debate between Mr. Francione and Joe Medicine Crow as to whether Indians and Eskimos killing Buffalo and water fowl to eat and survive, for example, are doing so for "trivial purposes". And I will pay good money to see Mr. Francione convince the audience that he cares more about the sanctity of animals than Chief Crow.
Veganism...nah, I don't think I could take myself that seriously.
What's wrong with dairy and eggs?
For one thing, it is impossible for the dairy and egg industries to be economically viable without doing something with the unproductive males of the species. A few are kept for breeding purposes, but in general male calves of dairy cows end up as veal, and male chicks of laying hens are ground up (alive!) and used as feed.
For another thing, the average large-scale dairy and egg farms cause a great deal of suffering even for the surviving females.
There's a lot of information online arguing both sides, I encourage you to research it if you're interested.
For the record, I have nothing against veganism, or vegetarian diets. I agree that growing grain to feed cattle is a very poor acreage-to-protein ratio, and simply growing soybeans or other food crops is more efficient and skips the whole killing part. I disagree with farming practices that abuse animals or pump them with antibiotics, or pen them into small cages, I think it is cruel and it troubles me deeply. What I disagree with is the idea of a moral absolute that states that any killing is bad. There is no moral absolute. That is a Judeo-Christian concept. There is no morality in nature. Rights are not natural or innate. Rights are always granted by an authority, or they are taken by force. That said, I would actually consider a vegan lifestyle myself, not because of some imaginary sense of morality, but because of personal feelings of compassion for living things.
Alexandra, check out this link and let me know what you think: http://www.abolitionistapproach.com/commentary-aspects-of-the-vegetarianvegan-debate/
My Lordship, I agree that there are no moral absolutes. However, our species did not advance to its present point by living lives of moral nihilism. The fact that The Gun-Toting Atheist admits that he has compassion for living things and would consider going vegan is proof that there may just be hope for our screwed up world. Peace.
Hello, all.
@LonelyAtheist: I've skimmed through some of the articles, but I find them biased (all in favor of a fully vegan lifestyle): while addressing health issues caused by dairy products, they do not tell the full story (such as what the lack of the IGF-1 does).
I am sorry to say it, but as a first-comer to this for or against animal products debate, sites such as notmilk.com certainly do not do veganism justice by the biased way of presentation and what's more is that this whole concept of collecting incriminating articles of which the most part concentrate on the evil dairy products corporations just seems to my skeptic inner self as yet-another-conspiracy-theory-website.
@Rosemary: I understand what you mean. However, having arrived at this "no more meat" decision gradually and with no "plan" in mind, I cannot find any dairy replacement in my current nutritional habits (see my last paragraph).
I'll just be sticking with the no-hunting, no-animal-flesh and no-fur-and-skins-clothing-and-articles approach for now.
@His Lordship The Gun-Toting Atheist: I'm sure my wording was ambiguous; what I meant by "it is morally right not to kill living things in order to eat" was not implying value judgments on morality, but acting according to my conscience (which says something like "Life deserves respect, not slaughterhouses and fishing hooks").
@The Atheist Missionary: Thank you for the link. To be honest, I haven't been actually looking into vegetarianism and veganism per se, it was just my long-term position that killing animals for the "pleasure" (?!) of hunting and for clothing and accessories is plain wrong; lately, I have found it harder and harder to eat meat, thinking that my dish was actually a living creature especially bred and fed in order to get slaughtered (or fished) and end up in my plate. So I gradually decreased the amount of meat I ate and reached the present state of feeling disgust just when thinking about meat (I have the same reaction towards alcohol, for instance).
However, in the podcast you linked to, Gary Francione was talking of an issue that I really have not thought of before, i.e. not seeing veganism as "one way" of diminishing animal suffering, but seeing it as the ultimate solution, in an abolitionist approach. It is a talk encompassing morality and, I am sorry to say it, this sounds to me as some sort of heated preaching: he argues that from a moral standpoint there is no difference between animal flesh and animal products. I cannot stand by that morality thing.
My world view is devoid of absolute standards of any sort (they could only exist in the case of complete isolation, where only one sentient and conscious individual lived). Anything between two or more such individuals is not an absolute, but a widely accepted convention. Which is not immutable.
The pragmatic difference between animal flesh and animal products is life or death. Sure, this does not take away the issue of property over animals. It seems to me though that since before recorded history, the existance of mankind has been inextricably intertwined with that of domesticated species of plants and animals. I don't know.
Yes, I do feel bad that animals suffer, but I just cannot go vegan. My problem is not what Mr. Francione called being unconvinced; it's just that I lack dairy and eggs substitutes: roughly, my current diet is 1/3 cereals, 1/3 dairy products and 1/3 fruit. I occasionally eat eggs, mushrooms, beetroot in vinegar and tomatoes and that's just about it. I do not really like vegetables, much the less all the sorts of alien beans that you guys probably eat. I do not cook and I do not plan to, nor am I eccentric enough to dine at restaurants. So if I will ever find a non-beans, non-rice, non-pasta alternative to dairy products (and something that also goes well with my morning cereals, instead of yogurt), I will probably take it up, but I am not quite optimistic about the chances.
Alexandra, thanks for your interest in this topic. I haven't found giving up dairy products nearly as difficult. I am drinking "Silk" soya beverage in my coffee right now.
Everybody should make their own decisions. I am certainly not adopting a holier than thou attitude. Basically, from now on, if I have a choice between consuming an animal product and not consuming one, I will choose the latter. I'm not throwing out my leather shoes but I won't be buying any in the future.
If it weren't for sheep herding, I don't think there would be a lot of wild sheep left in the world. Isn't sheep herding a form of conservation then?
From the New York Times:
"Sorry, Vegans, Brussels sprouts like to live, too."
http://tinyurl.com/yaluy65
Here's a sad story titled: "Man convicted for killing and eating China's last Indochinese tiger"
http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=man-convicted-for-killing-and-eatin-2009-12-25
Patti, applying Angier's logic: you inevitably step on ants when you walk on the sidewalk so you might as well become a mass murderer of humans.
I went vegan after reading "animal liberation" from being mostly pescetarian and eating the occasional "humanely raised" meat. Before I went vegan I didn't like fruits or vegetables very much but I have changed my entire way of eating and am healthier for it. To me, being vegan is a natural extension of evolutionary theory and a naturalistic worldview.
For those of you not believing in "moral absolutism" do you think it ok to lie, cheat, steal or hurt anyone else for trivial gain? If you do then there must be a good reason why atheists are the least trusted group in America. I recognize that human animals suffer and therefore nonhuman animals suffer. "In suffering animals are our equals". If you would not kick a dog simply for the thrill of it then why would you pay someone to slaughter an animal because you like the taste? As a wonderful example of the "moral schizophrenia" involved in eating animals take the tremendous outcry against Michael Vick.
Here is an interesting article for those of you who haven't seen it.
www.philly.com/dailynews/opinion/20070822/_Were_all_michael_vick.html
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