If you truly love your children, don't fill their heads with myths and threats of eternal punishment out of all proportion to the wrong complained of (by the way, what wrong would justify an eternal punishment?). Instead, teach them The Golden Rule, the power of reason and the benefits of applying a healthy skepticism towards life. Teach them how to think, not what to think. If they decide to embrace a religion once they attain adulthood, that will be their choice and not yours.
If more parents started adopting this approach, we would have better adjusted kids and a better adjusted world. If you disagree, please leave a comment.
25 comments:
Your title claims "Indoctrinating kids with Christianity is abusive" yet then you go on to say that it is threats of hell that are abusive.
Christianity != Threats of Hell
Not even all sects of Christianity believe in Hell.
Hello Atheist Missionary
How can I agree with you and Jake at the same time?
Well, telling people about Hell can be scary, but to say it's child abuse is wrong on 2 levels. 1st give people credit, and yes even kids. Let them make informed decisions. I heard about Hell my whole life growing up and still lived a life that did not fear God or Hell. Secondly to compare a Parent teaching his kid about God to some kids who are really being abused, physically, sexually or just mean and demeaning parents, just ain't right. I'd say most people whether they are Atheists or Christians who are good people will have their kids grow up well adjusted and happy. But mean a-hole type parents whether they be Atheist or Christians will have a-hole kids?
Also, back to Jake, If his brand of Christianity doesn't believe in Hell, would you be open then to Christianity? I'm sure he will save you a seat on Sunday?
Dueces, feeno
I don't have any problem with myth. Without fantasy, our children would be without many of childhood's little pleasures, like the tooth fairy, for instance.
The difference is simple. Nobody says "believe in the tooth fairy OR ELSE..." But it is somehow okay for children to be taught that they must believe in God OR ELSE. That is the problem.
CDKC, W'dup Dawg
But if I feel Hell is real, shouldn't I tell those who are at least closest to me?
Also you guys are assuming that are prisons are filled with people who became warped because of the hell concept?
I think it's mean to tell kids that when they die their bodies just decay and are eventually eaten by maggots. Unless something big eats them and then they just end up a pile of shit.
Heaven sounds nicer than that.
Peace brah, feeno
My dad grew up with a crazy mother who was filling his head with stories of the devil hiding in his closet, and at his school there was a painting of the devil skewering people with a pitchfork and throwing them into a pool of boiling lava.
When he was old enough to realize that the devil actually wasn't hiding in the closet, he was like "Man, I'm glad that psycho bitch died of cancer when I was 8 years old."
She was a bipolar woman filled with fear and she was projecting her fears onto him, and wouldn't let him play with other kids and stuff like that. She wouldn't even let him carry his own book bag because she was afraid that would give him a hunchback. Give me a break...
So yes, it wasn't physical abuse, but it definitely was psychological abuse.
True story, although I'm paraphrasing what he said. In retrospect, he says that his mother passing away was like escaping from jail.
I'm not saying all parents who teach their kids about hell are abusive like that, but if you're not careful, your grandkids will become gun-toting atheists.
Lordship
You made my point. You yourself said your granny was "crazy", "bi-polar" and possibly a "bitch".
So did the abuse come from her religion or her psychotic behavior?
You turned out OK because your Dad is probably a nice guy. Atheist or Christian?
That's what I was telling CKDC, good parenting comes from good parents. Not Christian or Atheist. If you read my comment from what you just wrote over at my crib, you'll see that I agree with you about that too.
P.S. It's funny we should meet tonight, we had a Bible study tonight and the teacher just showed a 68 minute video of some dude named Gabriel Suarez. He's some gun-ho gun toter himself. Anyways I thought of you.
peace out and good night good sir. feeno
TAM,
Please explain how "threatening kids with a made-up hell" is child abuse.
What can you say to all of this? Wow.
There is likely not much that I could say that would change anyone's mind here.
What I can say, which I suspect we can all agree, is that perfection does not exist in man.
Feeno, the religeon was probably a prop for her bipolar disorder. Bipolar people can live healthy average lives when they are helped to maintain their own modd levels. Often though religioous fanaticism gets in the way of treating mental health effectively because of medieval ideas about the causes of such illnesses. I still see people exclaiming that people with long term serious mental health problems as evil, possessed by evil or the devil etc etc. Most people fear the mentally ill, and won't engage with them to help. his Lordships Grandmother probably had no-one who even wanted to understand how her mental ill health was affecting her child, and just thought it was down to her crazy religious beliefs rather than actual illness, and people sure as heck don't want to interfere with religious freedoms, even when they incorporate child abuse, the demeaning of women and all manner of behaviour otherwise considered to be anti social. I do believe telling children that they will go to hell if they don't follow "the one true god" is child abuse, as is any threat like that. Raise children to be respectful, to understand boundaries, be consistent with them, love them and treat them with respect. Don't use religion as a prop or rod to beat your child with.
feeno: the dawg is dawgin' - thanks for askin'.
Good parenting comes from good parents - atheist or Christian. On that point, we agree. I did not mean to suggest in any way that Christians cannot make good parents. On the contrary, most Christians I know are good parents. But just like I will never indoctrinate my children by demanding that they read The Atheist Missionary, for example, and do not believe in God or the Bible, I expect that Christian parents will likewise refrain from trying to brainwash their children with ultimatums and threats of eternal damnation.
I was going to close by saying peace out brotha, but in honour of HLTGTA, I will say "piece" out...
I dont know about you but i love my kids and I teach them what you believe is right, but if i believe hell is real what should i teach them.
And what abot the sixtys whe kids in school were told how to act when atomic war started, what about swine flu, over population, global warming, world hunger if you think christians are the only ones scaring their children think again,
'Sup CKDC
What's "HLTGTA"?
Oh btw, WHO DEY!!!
Feeno - there was a study done showing that actually majority of people have no problem with accepting both sides of contradictions.
CKDC - I think that untill some age children would not be able to grab in full the concept of hell (or other), so I agree that it may be acceptable then, without too harsh threating of course.
And I am afraid that reverse concept of heaven as reward is also quite dangerous. And at all that beliving that there are perfect things, states, whatever may lead to absolutism which is able to do a lot of damage.
TAM I am curious if you would really be able to copy with your children choices sometime in the future.
Please explain how "threatening kids with a made-up hell" is child abuse.
Dear *
Thank you.
Paul, I think TAM is saying that it's mental abuse to scare or threaten children with the concept of eternal punishment if they don't follow Christ.
I'm guessing of course. Peace be with you.
feeno - HLTGTA: His Lordship the Gun Toting Atheist. Hence, the reference to "piece".
Cheque please.
You have good taste in movies - Outlaw Josey Wales is also one of my favourites. Eastwood is classic. And yes, your wife is hot.
CKDC
Good lookin' out brah
piece out
TAM,
I also disagree with the use of Hell as a threat to scare children into obeying their parents. But like feeno said, if a parent truly believes that Hell exists, then they would believe that they were teaching their children about Hell for their childrens' best interest.
You said to teach your children how to think, not what to think. No matter how you try to get around it, the way that you live your life through your beliefs is teaching children what to think, even if this is just by example. It seems, just by reading the description of this page, that you may be teaching your children that Christianity is a silly, irrational belief system and unworthy of serious consideration. This is your own belief, and if your children someday ask about what you believe, they will proabably learn this. I don't think that there's a way to avoid teaching children what to think, because you are ultimately teaching them what YOU think. This applies to so much, including eating habits, political beliefs, etc. However you live, you are showing your children that this way of living is what you see as "right", thus they, since parents are the most readily available teachers, will learn from your life what they should consider "right". This is not to say that what is learned by parents can't be questioned later by children. So, since it might be impossible to not teach children what to think, I think parents must make sure that this isn't all they teach, and that they also make sure their children know how to think.
Cozbi wrote: you may be teaching your children that Christianity is a silly, irrational belief system and unworthy of serious consideration. Absolutely not. Please see my today's post entitled "A Fair Way to Fight Religious Indoctrination of Children".
Paul asks: Please explain how "threatening kids with a made-up hell" is child abuse.
Well, to use a couple of analogies, I would consider it mentally abusive to tell a child that a spider will crawl up their ass and eat out their insides if they steal a candy bar. Instead, I would explain to them that they should not steal because they should treat others the way they want to be treated and they don't want people stealing from them. if that reasoning doesn't appeal to them, I would also explain that society usually locks up thiefs.
Similarly, I would consider it mentally abusive to tell a child that there is a fairy living in the garden who created them and insists that they live their lives as described in Horton Hears a Who and, if they fail to do so, they will suffer unimaginable torments. Instead, I will teach them that it is always right to protect those who can't protect themselves because they would want to be protected if they were the little ones. If that reaosning doesn't appeal to them, I will tell them what their father will do to them if I hear that they were acting like a bully on the playground.
If you don't mind scaring kids with silly doctrines like original sin, hellfire, praying to a zombie and an imaginary friend in the sky watching over them (or, in the case of tsunamis, looking the other way), I guess there is nothing mentally abusive about Christianity.
Just thought I'd highlight my favorite part of your response.
"I will teach them that it is always right to protect those who can't protect themselves because they would want to be protected if they were the little ones."
Why is it always right to protect those who cannot protect themselves?
Paul, my answer to your question is that I have an evolved and learned sense of right and wrong that leads me to that conclusion. I respect your right to believe the answer is "because lordy tells me so" - the only problem with that approach is that lordy could decide tomorrow that it is ok to start raping children. But why wait - the RC clergy already has that down to a science.
OOh Paul, I know.. it's always right because of bible quote "X". What do I win? Hopefully it's eternal salvation!
If being a future theologian mainly involves mine-quoting to always bring the conversation back to a loving Creator that gave us a sense of right and wrong at the moment of divine insertion, I can play that game all day long too. Where do I collect my DEGREE?
I want to clarify something. My grandmother's craziness included - but was not limited to - scary stories about Hell. She was just plain all-around crazy. So to answer Feeno's question, yes, she still would have been a suffocating parent, even with religion out of the equation. But still, telling my dad that the devil was hiding in the closet with a pitchfork at the ready, was a little too much.
Luckily he grew up to be quite sane, so it was a stroke of luck that she died of cancer when he was still young. Who knows what would have happened if cancer treatments had been better back then.
Who knows what would have happened if someone hadn't filled her mind with crap?
Who knows what would have happened if Bi-polar treatments were better back then?
Who knows what would have happened if schizophrenia treatments were better back then?
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