1. The concept of original sin is probably the most intellectually vacuous one in the annals of Christianity. If anyone can look at me and tell me these kids are "sinners" and deserving of eternal punishment (but for the substitutionary atonement of Christ), they are beyond deluded - they are sick in the head.
2. Every parent sitting here on the bleachers would be willing to sacrifice their life (without hesitation) if it was necessary to save their child ... and likely to save the child of another. That thought comforts me.
3. Belief in the supernatural adds absolutely nothing to this idyllic scene. I don't need heaven ... this is it folks.
Enjoy your weekend and thanks for dropping by. TAM.
Sent from my BlackBerry device on the Rogers Wireless Network
17 comments:
1) What, so you're sayiing that they've never sinned? The only reason that you think belief in eternal punishment is deluded is that humans selfishly desire more lenient justice. But God decides what the punishment for sin is. We don't.
2) No disagreement there.
3) Maybe you can enjoy this life without believing in God. Plenty of people do. It's the part after death that will get you. Believe me, Hell is no "idyllic scene."
Justin, what I am saying is that any deity that would impose moral responsibility (and the prospect of eternal damnation) on infants/children is a pussy and unworthy of the privilege of cleaning my basement.
I don't like many aspects of the United States government (particularly its history). Does that mean that I can or should reject it entirely? Or do I accept that it has the authority to govern and submit to its laws?
And if that god does exist, would you go to Hell because your morals differ from those of that god?
Justin, your comments remind me of the quote by French actress Audrey Tatou: I believe in God, but I am not sure to trust Him so much. In other words, in the unlikely event that your chosen deity exists, he is (in the words of Richard Dawkins): jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
I would have thought that Justin's primary retort to point number three would be that Heaven is not supernatural?
I can never predict these things.
By the way, depending upon where you live and your religious beliefs, number two is dicey.
TAM:
Yes, the Judeo-Christian God is a jealous God. It's in scripture. But unjust? How? He's infinitely just - and that's what atheists don't like. They think that eternal punishment is too harsh, when in reality, as the God of the universe, He has the right to decide what is just enough. Denial of that is selfishness.
As for the second part of Dawkins' quote, he's just spewing big words (half of which I don't the definition of). He's not talking about God. He's talking about his own delusional, self-created, nonexistent image of God created from his own personal beliefs and likely some misinterpreted scripture.
CKDC: Your name reminds me of xkcd. But anyway... Your third paragraph is sadly true, but that doesn't say anything about God, just a particular group of his "followers."
Unjust:
"For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him."
Hey stay off these electronic thingys when at that fabulous skating facility and enjoy the time with your kids....shut the machines off...once and a while...I assume you are watching some form of athletic endeavor this evening....
Justin, "Believe me, Hell is no "idyllic scene."?
How exactly do you know that?
You've made a VERY GOOD point!
The very idea of God blaming anyone for what another did is wrong.
The idea that God would burn someone for a single second, no matter what they actually did is very wrong.
And the idea that God would torture billions of people for eternity is absolutely wrong.
What's odd is that Jesus, in his original teachings and by the way he lived, tried to point these things out!
I've actually written an entire book on this topic--Hell? No! Why You Can Be Certain There's No Such Place As Hell, (for anyone interested, you can get a free ecopy of Did Jesus Believe in Hell?, one of the most compelling chapters in my book at www.thereisnohell.com), but if I may, let me share one of the many points I make in it to explain why.
If one is willing to look, there's substantial evidence contained in the gospels to show that Jesus opposed the idea of Hell. For example, in Luke 9:51-56, is a story about his great disappointment with his disciples when they actually suggested imploring God to rain FIRE on a village just because they had rejected him. His response: "You don't know what spirit is inspiring this kind of talk!" Presumably, it was NOT the Holy Spirit. He went on, trying to explain how he had come to save, heal and relieve suffering, not be the CAUSE of it.
So it only stands to reason that this same Jesus, who was appalled at the very idea of burning a few people, for a few horrific minutes until they were dead, could never, ever burn BILLIONS of people for an ETERNITY!
True, there are a few statements that made their way into the copies of copies of copies of the gospel texts which place “Hell” on Jesus’ lips, but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, most likely due to the Church filling up with Greeks who imported their belief in Hades with them when they converted.
Bear in mind that the historical Protestant doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures applies only to the original autographs, not the copies. But sadly, the interpolations that made their way into those copies have provided a convenient excuse for a lot of people to get around following Jesus’ real message.
Rick Lannoye, you say, "but these adulterations came along many decades after his death, . . "
But everything written in the New Testament came along decades after his death. Aren't you, like so many modern apologists for the christian faith, just being selective. Selecting the bits that you like; the bits that chime with modern ethical thought?
Quedula I think that some selections can be more justified than other, but whatever is not written in those or these versions, Rick does -as many say - this that some people have to suffer here in this life sometimes for quite a long time doesn't matter as far as image of God is concenrned?
"Justin, 'Believe me, Hell is no 'idyllic scene.'?' How exactly do you know that?"
I've never heard of any form of "Hell" that is an "idyllic scene." If there has been one suggested, please direct me to where I can read about it.
A god who would punish billions of people by throwing them into a lake of fire for eternity is not proof that that god is immensely insane, but rather, it is proof that such a god is too absurd to even exist.
Take a step back for a minute and ask yourselves a few questions. Does it make sense? If it sounds like bullshit and smells like bullshit, it probably is either horseshit or bullshit.
Dear Quedula, it's not just that everything written in the New Testament came along decades after his death, it's that everything written about him is a fabrication, since he is a fictional character who never lived or died (or even resurrected) in real life. So I'm not being selective by rejecting the whole thing!
It is strange how goddidits are always threatening non-believers with hell. They must somehow think that this vindicates their beliefs and haven't any better arguments.
"A god who would punish billions of people by throwing them into a lake of fire for eternity is not proof that that god is immensely insane, but rather, it is proof that such a god is too absurd to even exist."
Let me paraphrase:
I don't like the Judeo-Christian God, so he can't exist. His justice system is too harsh for us poor sinners, so there is no way he can exist.
Stop for a second. I can see everyone's point of view. This argument here will get us nowhere. Whether or not you believe is, well, it's what you believe.
Assume this for this chunk of text: God is real. God created us. The Bible is real. The Bible is God's holy word. Don't argue this, just put this in your mind for this piece of text I am writing.
God created us. God forms all justice. We are supposed to follow what he has told us to do. He, the judge, has already said "The wages of sin are death." and that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Basically he's saying, EVERYBODY deserves death. God is a merciful God. He created a path that doesn't come to us dying. We have to follow Jesus, who God sent as the Saviour of the world. God is a merciful God in this sense, and a gracious God. He doesn't give us that which we have deserved (Death) and he gives us that which we could in no way earn (Life).
My view on hell is actually quite scary. All people who go to hell are shown the glory of God. They are shown how incredible, how majestic, how perfect he is. Then they are forced to live for eternity without that. They are shown what they could have, but are denied it, because they chose not to believe.
Anyway, that's a Christian perspective on this whole thing. I'm not threatening you with hell (thought it may seem such a way), I am merely stating what our holy text, the Bible says.
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